ECT Our salvation, by the will of God or the will of man?

Cross Reference

New member
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.

For them, yes.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
"I am God, I change not" . . . God.

You are excused as well.

Well, you ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer.

Their salvation was dependent on a lifestyle of doing the law.

We are not under the law, but we are under grace.

Salvation to us is a gift, not wages earned by the works of the law.

However, God does expect us to live accordingly to the gift He gave.

Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:12 I Timothy 2:4
 

Cross Reference

New member
Well, you ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer.

Their salvation was dependent on a lifestyle of doing the law.

We are not under the law, but we are under grace.

Salvation to us is a gift, not wages earned by the works of the law.

However, God does expect us to live accordingly to the gift He gave.

Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:12 I Timothy 2:4

Please, start your own thread.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.

I probably shouldn't do this now since I don't have a lot of time to post, but this scripture popped into mind :

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
.
John 1:11-13
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.

I said
It takes both. Gods will is that no one go to hell. But we know some will. Our will is to obey God, but we don't.

2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(NKJ)

Rom 7:14-17
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
(NKJ)
 

Cross Reference

New member
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.


I probably shouldn't do this now since I don't have a lot of time to post, but this scripture popped into mind :

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
.
John 1:11-13

Thank you, Nikolai!

I believe the understanding God is trying to convey is: "If you do this, I will do that and if you do that I will do this".
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
I probably shouldn't do this now since I don't have a lot of time to post, but this scripture popped into mind :

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
.
John 1:11-13

Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore [you] choose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)

"may" being the operative word that speaks of it as being a lifestyle, not to be departed from.

Thank you, Nikolai!

I believe the understanding God is trying to convey is: "If you do this, I will do that and if you do that I will do this".

It seems to me that the very first part of your paraphrase ("If you do this...") necessarily implies that man has to will it before God will do it. That, as I read it, is contrary to what John is saying. Neither the fleshly will nor the will of man at all is bringing this about. It is "of God". If the will of man is required to validate and approve of God's will (which seems to me the way this text has to be read to line up with the way you are reading it), then only the doing can be said to be of God - and not the willing. That is partly negated by that verse itself, but we also find that it is only God who wills AND does of His good pleasure :

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12-13

And Proverbs tells us (as does the Psalms, I think) that man may make plans and will to do things, but ultimately it is God who dispositions events. So if you are asserting that God has said "Come" (and maybe even "Do") and He is waiting for those who do so to do so of their own volition, you have a situation where the unregenerate, reprobate sinner whose heart is wicked and deceitful above all things has to be relied upon to do what he doesn't naturally will (but do so of his own free will). And, when he does, then (and only then) can he be born of God (but it is not of his will at that point since he's already surrendered it). Because John 1:13 is clear that the willing (and the doing) is of God. But if God can't do His will until we come to Him of our own will, then the whole thing hangs - not on God's will, but ours (in our natural, fallen, deceived, wicked state).

It seems to me, then, that the salvation of man has to hinge on one of two things - God's will and ability or man's will to overcome his nature. Man's will to do so can only come if God changes man (or if he is naturally good in inclination). And at the very least that requires the truth be laid out in full view of the sinner - such conviction only comes from God. And conviction requires the bypass and/or penetration of a heart inclined to sin (and even ignore conscience). And, again, I'm brought back to John 1:13. If the willing to be saved is of the man himself (separate from the will of God), then God has to sit there and rely on the will of sinful, reprobate man to choose Him. Without a change, it can't and won't. So I can't help but apply that passage to the whole of salvation.

Is man's "free will" diminished any? From a human perspective, it certainly is not. But if the depths of depravity are as great as Jeremiah 17:9 says (and I believe they are), then just to get to a point of saying "Yes" to God (I speak from a human perspective here), God has to do something else first. He doesn't save us just so we can escape the consequences of sin, but He does it to make us new. And we don't even will that (according to John 1:11-13).
 
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Cross Reference

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It seems to me that the very first part of your paraphrase ("If you do this...") necessarily implies that man has to will it before God will do it. That, as I read it, is contrary to what John is saying. Neither the fleshly will nor the will of man at all is bringing this about. It is "of God". If the will of man is required to validate and approve of God's will (which seems to me the way this text has to be read to line up with the way you are reading it), then only the doing can be said to be of God - and not the willing. That is partly negated by that verse itself, but we also find that it is only God who wills AND does of His good pleasure :

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12-13

And Proverbs tells us (as does the Psalms, I think) that man may make plans and will to do things, but ultimately it is God who dispositions events. So if you are asserting that God has said "Come" (and maybe even "Do") and He is waiting for those who do so to do so of their own volition, you have a situation where the unregenerate, reprobate sinner whose heart is wicked and deceitful above all things has to be relied upon to do what he doesn't naturally will (but do so of his own free will). And, when he does, then (and only then) can he be born of God (but it is not of his will at that point since he's already surrendered it). Because John 1:13 is clear that the willing (and the doing) is of God. But if God can't do His will until we come to Him of our own will, then the whole thing hangs - not on God's will, but ours (in our natural, fallen, deceived, wicked state).

It seems to me, then, that the salvation of man has to hinge on one of two things - God's will and ability or man's will to overcome his nature. Man's will to do so can only come if God changes man (or if he is naturally good in inclination). And at the very least that requires the truth be laid out in full view of the sinner - such conviction only comes from God. And conviction requires the bypass and/or penetration of a heart inclined to sin (and even ignore conscience). And, again, I'm brought back to John 1:13. If the willing to be saved is of the man himself (separate from the will of God), then God has to sit there and rely on the will of sinful, reprobate man to choose Him. Without a change, it can't and won't. So I can't help but apply that passage to the whole of salvation.

Is man's "free will" diminished any? From a human perspective, it certainly is not. But if the depths of depravity are as great as Jeremiah 17:9 says (and I believe they are), then just to get to a point of saying "Yes" to God (I speak from a human perspective here), God has to do something else first. He doesn't save us just so we can escape the consequences of sin, but He does it to make us new. And we don't even will that (according to John 1:11-13).

What God does, is certainly by His will He does it __ likewise with man.

The implication in the OP is that the result of what God wills with be determined by man's. "I set before you . . .Choose".
 
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