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Thread: One on One: The God of Allsmiles vs. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

  1. #16
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    I consider the Bible to be the Word of God. I do not look at it as the word of Paul, the word of Peter, etc.
    maybe i wasn't clear enough when i asked the first time, no real way to dumb it down anymore so i guess i'll just repeat the question, and keep in mind, i didn't ask about paul or peter. i asked about jesus.

    your faith is not entirely dependant on the words of jesus? the bible must be taken as a whole, so without the words of paul and peter the words of christ are unreliable? would it be possible to come to salvation without the words of paul or peter?

    i know it's a digression, but i'm curious now that we have stumbled upon the topic.

    The fact that you are disgusted by eternal life would seem to necessarily acompany your rejection of the Savior.
    you speak of my disgust and rejection as if i acknowledge the reality of your beliefs, you need to stop doing that doc. i reject your beliefs on the basis of them being fiction, not fact. i have admitted before that if what you say is true i would still reject your savior, and i'm comfortable with that, but what you believe is not true, so i sleep even better at night.

    You are intellectually honest enough to recognize that you are not worthy of salvation. On that I congratulate you.
    uh... what? i don't believe salvation exists doc, and as for the total depravity of man, that's another doctrine i reject wholly as being an invented moral dilemma. i invest my energy in giving the goodness of humanity the benefit of the doubt. mankind is in no need of redemption from anything, by anyone and until you can produce evidence from and in reality that dictates we do, i'll have to believe my eyes, and not a book.

    However, it appears that you reject the Savior in the hope that there is no eternal life so that you can maintain your "autonomy" relative to God without worrying about the consequences. Of course, you do worry about the consequences, otherwise you wouldn't be here.
    here you go again, speaking as though i have acknowledged the validity and reality of your beliefs and am rejecting them nonetheless. it is true, that if your beliefs were true i would reject them, but this is not the case. i acknowledge your beliefs to be what history clearly shows them to be: myth. there's nothing to reject but baseless assertions and empty, pharisaical platitudes.

    and as for my being here, i've explained it dozens of times: i'm here for the entertainment value, for the "company" of the characters around here, and to strengthen myself in my own beliefs. so far your persistent and irrelevant allegations of my rebellion against a god i believe in my heart to be a myth is insulting in it's repetiveness and leads me to believe you are both not paying attention and desperately seeking to fit me into a biblical mold that i more than obviously do not fit into.

    The fact that atrocities have been committed in the name of organized religion seems to be particularly bothersome to you.
    what's more bothersome is that you seem to be unaffected by the reality of your faith's "glorious" church history.

    Do you think that the Bible contains specific instruction to commit these atrocities, or is it possible that these things are committed by people, acting on their own, trying to justify their actions in the name of religion.
    a little of both.

    Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

    Exodus 34:13 - But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

    Deuteronomy 2:34 - And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

    Deuteronomy 3:6 - And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

    Deuteronomy 7:5 - But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

    Deuteronomy 12:2 - Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree

    Deuteronomy 12:3 - And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

    Deuteronomy 13:15 - Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

    Deuteronomy 20:17 - But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee

    Joshua 10:40 - So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded

    1 Samuel 15:3 - Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

    I think you might see a theme... the word destroy. it's used 411 times in the old testament alone according to www.bible.com.

    i could go on, but it's not as though your deity, ficticious as he may be, ever had any qualms about mandating murder.

    Keep in mind that Christianity was also used as a basis for the abolitionist and civil rights movements.
    wonderful. i'll pretend for a moment that what you say is true.

    based on the above divine mandates, would you say that the good of the civil rights and abolitionist movement negates the mass slaughter commanded, demanded and directed by your god?
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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    maybe i wasn't clear enough when i asked the first time, no real way to dumb it down anymore so i guess i'll just repeat the question, and keep in mind, i didn't ask about paul or peter. i asked about jesus.

    your faith is not entirely dependant on the words of jesus? the bible must be taken as a whole, so without the words of paul and peter the words of christ are unreliable? would it be possible to come to salvation without the words of paul or peter?

    i know it's a digression, but i'm curious now that we have stumbled upon the topic.
    It must be me who was unclear, it doesn't matter to me to whom in the Bible teachings are attributed (Jesus, Paul, Daniel, etc.). It is all the Word of God, in my opinion, so the fact that Jesus is not directly quoted as addressing a particular matter is not important, if someone else did address it.


    you speak of my disgust and rejection as if i acknowledge the reality of your beliefs, you need to stop doing that doc. i reject your beliefs on the basis of them being fiction, not fact. i have admitted before that if what you say is true i would still reject your savior, and i'm comfortable with that, but what you believe is not true, so i sleep even better at night.
    I am not trying to attribute beliefs to you, I merely note that one who rejects Christ as Savior would logically also reject eternal life, unless he really believed that he was worthy of it, which I believe you are realistic enough to know you are not.


    uh... what? i don't believe salvation exists doc, and as for the total depravity of man, that's another doctrine i reject wholly as being an invented moral dilemma. i invest my energy in giving the goodness of humanity the benefit of the doubt. mankind is in no need of redemption from anything, by anyone and until you can produce evidence from and in reality that dictates we do, i'll have to believe my eyes, and not a book.
    I think all you have to do is read a little history to understand the deparavity of man. If man is basically good, why don't socialist systems work?


    and as for my being here, i've explained it dozens of times: i'm here for the entertainment value, for the "company" of the characters around here, and to strengthen myself in my own beliefs. so far your persistent and irrelevant allegations of my rebellion against a god i believe in my heart to be a myth is insulting in it's repetiveness and leads me to believe you are both not paying attention and desperately seeking to fit me into a biblical mold that i more than obviously do not fit into.
    I know what you say about why you are here, I simply don't beleive it.


    what's more bothersome is that you seem to be unaffected by the reality of your faith's "glorious" church history.
    I am not bothered by these things as I do accept the thesis of total depravity. You seem to like to ignore the atrocities that much more recent athiest regimes have committed.


    a little of both.

    Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

    Exodus 34:13 - But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

    Deuteronomy 2:34 - And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

    Deuteronomy 3:6 - And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

    Deuteronomy 7:5 - But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

    Deuteronomy 12:2 - Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree

    Deuteronomy 12:3 - And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

    Deuteronomy 13:15 - Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

    Deuteronomy 20:17 - But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee

    Joshua 10:40 - So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded

    1 Samuel 15:3 - Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

    I think you might see a theme... the word destroy. it's used 411 times in the old testament alone according to www.bible.com.
    These were commands made to a specific people at a specific time, they are not universal commands. God is sovereign, and can do as He wishes.

    i could go on, but it's not as though your deity, ficticious as he may be, ever had any qualms about mandating murder.
    Sadly, you cannot prove that my Deity is fictitous. You can only assert it. That is what I am trying to figure out, why you assert it, given that even you, by Pauline standards, clearly acknowledge the existence of some type of god.


    wonderful. i'll pretend for a moment that what you say is true.
    I know you are young, and, therefore, not to well educated, but these things are true.

    based on the above divine mandates, would you say that the good of the civil rights and abolitionist movement negates the mass slaughter commanded, demanded and directed by your god?
    The movements were good, and whatever God commands is good.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  3. #18
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    It must be me who was unclear, it doesn't matter to me to whom in the Bible teachings are attributed (Jesus, Paul, Daniel, etc.). It is all the Word of God, in my opinion, so the fact that Jesus is not directly quoted as addressing a particular matter is not important, if someone else did address it.
    i don't understand why you're having such a hard time saying "no" doc. all you have to do is say, "no, my faith is not dependant on the teachings of jesus." are the teachings of paul on the same level as jesus? are the words of nahum on the same level as the words of jesus?

    I am not trying to attribute beliefs to you, I merely note that one who rejects Christ as Savior would logically also reject eternal life, unless he really believed that he was worthy of it, which I believe you are realistic enough to know you are not.
    if christ is the savior, and if his salvation did promise eternal life than a rejection would entail condemnation. and as for not deserving eternal life... i dunno, i think i'm a pretty awesome guy, i don't see any reason why any god would condemn me on principle, seems petty to me. i think i deserve to go to heaven if what you say is true, and if i don't meet your god's standards than i welcome hell.

    I think all you have to do is read a little history to understand the deparavity of man. If man is basically good, why don't socialist systems work?
    because man has it in him to indulge both good and evil. some men indulge the evil, but i give them the benefit of the doubt until they wrong me and my loved ones. i don't believe in guilty until proven innocent.

    I know what you say about why you are here, I simply don't beleive it.
    my world is crushed

    I am not bothered by these things as I do accept the thesis of total depravity. You seem to like to ignore the atrocities that much more recent athiest regimes have committed.
    i'm not ignoring anything, i didn't realize we were suddenly talking about atheism too. just because the number of people you folks have murdered may be smaller in comparison to atheism's doesn't mean a thing.

    These were commands made to a specific people at a specific time, they are not universal commands. God is sovereign, and can do as He wishes.
    how charmingly cold and inhuman.

    Sadly, you cannot prove that my Deity is fictitous. You can only assert it. That is what I am trying to figure out, why you assert it, given that even you, by Pauline standards, clearly acknowledge the existence of some type of god.
    not sure if i understand so correct me if i'm wrong. i know that i cannot prove your deity is fictitious just as you cannot prove that he isn't. as for the pauline standard, this "standard" would have and does exist with or without him, i'm not surprised that he verifies reality.

    I know you are young, and, therefore, not to well educated, but these things are true.
    that was a hell of a good lesson too, i think i'm in the process of changing my mind right now

    The movements were good, and whatever God commands is good.
    the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children, live stock, property, the destruction of kingdoms, the sacking and raising of cities, the desecration of sacred pagan sites, etc. that's all good because your god commanded it?

    you have a sick and twisted perspective and if what you say is true i'll whole heartedly reject your god as the sadistic monster he so brazenly is.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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    Well, on that happy note I will have to take a break. Work is heavy, and I will be starting back to New Orleans tomorrow.

    If Knight is looking, could you please grant a 2-3 day extension on this discussion. I am about to rake smiles over the coals real good.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  5. #20
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    i'm 6' and weigh 160lbs.

    not too much to cook.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allsmiles
    i'm 6' and weigh 160lbs.

    not too much to cook.
    Well, eat some larded beef and bulk up a little. Chicks dig lard.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    that's what i've been doing wrong.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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    Thanks to the graciousness of Knight (yes, sucking up) we have until October 10 to complete this landmark discussion.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    I am back, let's get ready to rumble.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Sadly, due to both allsmiles absences and my own, this one on one ended before it really got started. There are a number of questions I would have liked to ask allsmiles, such as how a non-conscious god entity creates itself, and how such an entity could produce an orderly, interdependent creation. Hopefully here or elsewhere allsmiles can address these questions.

    I have learned a couple of things things about allsmiles beliefs, which I would like to comment on. First, allmiles rejects the true God because His followers are hypocrites. In the observation of hypocrisy, allsmiles is correct. No one measures up to the standard of perfection of our true and holy God. This is why God, in his lovingkindness and mercy provided us a Savior so that through His righteousness, not our own, we are able to come into His presence. Allsmiles believes that his own righteousness should be sufficient for salvation, if such a thing existed. This is because the god of allsmiles sets no standard. The standard is set by allsmiles himself.

    Secondly, allsmiles believes that accounts of the True God to be myth, in part, because these accounts tell of God acting in ways in which allsmiles does not approve. This is exemplified in the early accounts of God commanding the Hebrew people to wipe out pagan tribes, etc. God sought to set out for himself a holy people through which the world would come to know Him. These people, the Israelites, were promised a special land that, at the time of the promise, was inhabited and surrounded by godless, violent, pagan people. Is the Israelites were to be the holy nation that God intended, they could not be infiltrated or infected by these pagan tribes. Accordingly, God did the only thing that could be done, ordering their destruction. The ultimate goal of this destruction was to be a blessing not only to Israel, but also to all of mankind, which would come to know God through His people. Allsmiles presumes to judge God on this matter.

    Fundamentally, I believe that allsmiles is uncomfortable with the True God, and with the true means of salvation, because they take away any pretense of human glory. Christianity is a God-centered system of belief. It's human heroes are all deeply flawed, just like all of us are. To be Christian is at its essence to say "I'm not good enough, thank you Lord for saving me anyway." There is no pride in that, only gratitude. And in this life, even those of us who beleive manifest that gratitude very poorly.

    Ultimately, I don't know what allsmiles really believes. I do know that, sadly, at present, he rejects the True God, and is lost. May you find Him soon smiles.

    Thanks to allsmiles for participating in this discussion and to those who took time to read it.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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