The Trinity

7Spirits said:

I was fairly certain that you had no scripture.

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Why don't you use Scripture to oppose me, rather than just accuse me of being wrong?

The best and most immediate Scripture regarding these matters, are these concerning Jesus Christ:

Who "When the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law." Galatians 4:4

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

In just these two verses, we see Jesus Christ fulfilling the Law (the holy standard of God) while also possessing Grace and truth.

Are these opposite poles existent in the Person of the Son of God? Or are they both part of His Being? And purpose?

Jesus Christ came from God, performed New Covenant of Grace, put to death the sin of His people in Redemption, and returned to glory with the Father. While in the flesh, He was the express image of God (Hebrews 1:3); sinlessly keeping all the Law and despensing God's Grace . . with absolutely no conflicts in His Person and purposes, at all.

So what do you argue about? With what do you deny that both the Old Covenant of Works (Law) and the New Covenant of Grace were kept and ratified by His life, death, and resurrection?

Have you ever studied Covenant Theology?

Nang said:

Why don't you use Scripture to oppose me, rather than just accuse me of being wrong?

The best and most immediate Scripture regarding these matters, are these concerning Jesus Christ:

Who "When the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law." Galatians 4:4

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

In just these two verses, we see Jesus Christ fulfilling the Law (the holy standard of God) while also possessing Grace and truth.

Are these opposite poles existent in the Person of the Son of God? Or are they both part of His Being? And purpose?

Jesus Christ came from God, performed New Covenant of Grace, put to death the sin of His people in Redemption, and returned to glory with the Father. While in the flesh, He was the express image of God (Hebrews 1:3); sinlessly keeping all the Law and despensing God's Grace . . with absolutely no conflicts in His Person and purposes, at all.

So what do you argue about? With what do you deny that both the Old Covenant of Works (Law) and the New Covenant of Grace were kept and ratified by His life, death, and resurrection?

Have you ever studied Covenant Theology?

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You are suggesting that God, being born under the Law suggests that we were Creates under the Law. It doesn't take much scripture to disprove your misuse of scripture.

Romans 7:9 is a good start.

The second point is in Law and Grace. Which tree is Law and which tree is grace? Which brings life and which brings death. Who pushed death into is?

onto us? not into is.

Created, not creates

JudgeRightly said:

The first law given (to Adam) was to not partake of the law (aka the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).

After the flood, God gave Noah 3 commandments, none of which had anything to do with the Sabbath.

To Abraham He gave the commandment to circumcise. Circumcision (throughout the Bible) is used as a synonym for the law. All of Abraham's descendants had to circumcise. It was their law. But circumcision came before the Sabbath.

To Moses, God gave the 10 Commandments, and the Mosaic laws, which is the first time we see anything about keeping the Sabbath.

Question: why do you think God would have to explain a concept to the people of Israel if they already knew it? Consider this example:

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. - Numbers 15:32-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers15:32-36&version=NKJV

IF Israel had been keeping the sabbath for the past few hundred years, why was there any question of what to do with that man? You would think that they would have had that figured out by now.

I suggest to you that keeping the Sabbath was entirely new concept for the children of Israel, one that had been given only in their recent history, at Mount Sinai.

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The law covenant contained the law of God which always existed.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

God destroyed the generation in the flood because they broke Gods law.

The law covenant enshrined the law.

To single out the Sabbath as being separate from all of the laws is folly.

There is no longer the old covenant of law, but there is the higher law which men must keep and it includes the Sabbath, which apparently you have not discovered how to keep it.

LA

Nang said:

God promised Adam life if he kept the commands: procreate, care for the animals and garden, and not eat of the forbidden tree. God warned Adam if he disobeyed Him, he would suffer death.

That is the Law of God.

And it is called the "Old Covenant" because it demanded works.

Since the beginning, all mankind is born under the Old Covenant (Law), which no man can keep, because all persons inherit the human nature that Adam ruined and corrupted.

That is why God provided a New Covenant of Grace, so save a remnant of mankind from the Old.

The Law given by Moses to Israel, is the same as the commands given to Adam, only in more detail. Again, it was demonstrated that the nation of Israel could not keep the Law any better than Adam.

Abraham knew the Law before it was given to his biological seed. Abraham was also given the promise of Grace. So over and over, throughout time, Law and Grace are revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

There is nothing new under the sun. Law and Grace have existed since the beginning, for both Law and Grace reveal the eternal attributes of God, and are thus eternal themselves.

As far as the Sabbath, remember God resting on the 7th day? The concept was manifested in creation. It is not new to mankind, either. Again, the Sabbath will prove to be eternal for it reveals another attribute of eternal God.

I dislike having to differ with you so thoroughly, but you are way off track in your imaginations, here, and you need to correct your mindset as you study the Word of God.

The first three chapters of Genesis, establish permanent principles, that follow throughout the rest of Scripture. Failure to learn these, will either leave you spiritually poor, or you will fall into grievous error.

Please take my response as a sincere effort to help . . and not as criticism.

Nang

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Genesis does say that God rested from creation on the seventh day. However, it does not contain any command for men to likewise rest on that seventh day. That was introduced in the Law of Moses, the covenant on Mount Sinai. That covenant was made only with a specific people at a specific time. The nature of covenants is that you cannot simply "opt in" to a covenant made between two other parties. It is exclusive between them.

Excluded from that covenant would be all peoples before Sinai, and all gentile peoples after Sinai. You would also think that the New Testament would have at least ONE reference to "keep the Sabbath day" if it was something that needed to be introduced to Gentiles. But is there even one such mention? No, Not in a positive way, at least. We do have multiple references telling us that things like Sabbath days no longer matter.

Here are two such examples:

Romans 14:5-6 KJV
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

If you choose to observe any or all of these things, they can be of value 1) if one learns what they represent, of what they foretell of things to come, and 2) also that one does not get confused and substitute these over the blood of Christ, thus missing the whole point of the covenant of life all together.

Nang, or Keypurr, et al, do you have even one New Testament passage that tells us that we should be observing the law of Moses, or any of the sabbath days, in clear language? Otherwise, compared to (at least) the two passages above, you wouldn't want to be making up your own doctrin where God has already told us what he wants in scripture.

Lazy afternoon said:

The law covenant contained the law of God which always existed.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

God destroyed the generation in the flood because they broke Gods law.

The law covenant enshrined the law.

To single out the Sabbath as being separate from all of the laws is folly.

There is no longer the old covenant of law, but there is the higher law which men must keep and it includes the Sabbath, which apparently you have not discovered how to keep it.

LA

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Romans 5:14

So, no

Lazy afternoon said:

The law covenant contained the law of God which always existed.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

God destroyed the generation in the flood because they broke Gods law.

The law covenant enshrined the law.

To single out the Sabbath as being separate from all of the laws is folly.

There is no longer the old covenant of law, but there is the higher law which men must keep and it includes the Sabbath, which apparently you have not discovered how to keep it.

LA

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"Not working on a Sabbath" is not the higher law. Jesus himself said as much when speaking to the Pharisees. And if you look to the flood, it gives quite a different indication of what "the law" was that was transgressed that warranted the destruction of all flesh that lived on land.

7Spirits said:

Romans 5:14

So, no

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I think you meant Romans 14:5 in this case.

7Spirits said:

We are perpetually dependent on God. To teach that Adam and Eve were under Law (Commandments) before Genesis 3 is saying that Adam and Eve were only allowed to Live by their Law Keeping.

You can say what you want, but this idea always blends grace and Law.

What is your school of study, Nang?

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Adam and Eve did have law and a commandment. There was a law, and a stated penalty if that law was transgressed.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were only allowed to live by law keeping. They violated the law, and their lives became forfeit.

Rosenritter said:

"Not working on a Sabbath" is not the higher law. Jesus himself said as much when speaking to the Pharisees. And if you look to the flood, it gives quite a different indication of what "the law" was that was transgressed that warranted the destruction of all flesh that lived on land.

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Who said anything about not working on Saturday.

Have you figured out how to keep the sabbath, rather than abolish it?

LA

Rosenritter said:

I think you meant Romans 14:5 in this case.

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It was a setup.

Romans 5:13 shows that those two are both wrong

Rosenritter said:

Adam and Eve did have law and a commandment. There was a law, and a stated penalty if that law was transgressed.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were only allowed to live by law keeping. They violated the law, and their lives became forfeit.

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What is required to follow Law?

7Spirits said:

You are suggesting that God, being born under the Law suggests that we were Creates under the Law. It doesn't take much scripture to disprove your misuse of scripture.

Romans 7:9 is a good start.

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Adam was created good and since he is the biological father of the human race, he was created by God as federal representative of all men.

Immediately after God created Adam, God gave Adam instructions (commands) as to his purpose as federal head of the human race. So yes, man was created under the Law.

Do you consider the Law to be a bad thing?

Which tree is Law and which tree is grace? Which brings life and which brings death.

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There is no tree of Law or tree of Grace.

Adam would have lived forever if he had not disobeyed God, and partook of the forbidden tree. IOW's what God says, instructs, and commands . . is life. Going against God's word, instruction, and commands brings death. This principle is clearly taught in Genesis 2:15-17.

Who pushed death into is?

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Adam is held responsible for all death in this world. Romans 5:12

Lazy afternoon said:

The law covenant contained the law of God which always existed.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

God destroyed the generation in the flood because they broke Gods law.

The law covenant enshrined the law.

To single out the Sabbath as being separate from all of the laws is folly.

There is no longer the old covenant of law, but there is the higher law which men must keep and it includes the Sabbath, which apparently you have not discovered how to keep it.

LA

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Unless God moves to draw sinners to His grace, all sinners remain accountable under the Old Covenant Law . . which all men fail to keep.

Only being brought into God's Grace, according to the new Covenant of Jesus Christ, are souls rescued from death.

Nang said:

Adam was created good and since he is the biological father of the human race, he was created by God as federal representative of all men.

Immediately after God created Adam, God gave Adam instructions (commands) as to his purpose as federal head of the human race. So yes, man was created under the Law.

Do you consider the Law to be a bad thing?




There is no tree of Law or tree of Grace.

Adam would have lived forever if he had not disobeyed God, and partook of the forbidden tree. IOW's what God says, instructs, and commands . . is life. Going against God's word, instruction, and commands brings death. This principle is clearly taught in Genesis 2:15-17.





Adam is held responsible for all death in this world. Romans 5:12

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So good that he messed up? So responsible that he's the father of evil?

Rosenritter said:

Genesis does say that God rested from creation on the seventh day. However, it does not contain any command for men to likewise rest on that seventh day.

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God rested in communion with Adam, which if Adam had simply followed God's instructions (commands) as to how to enjoy all the provisions of life God had given him, it could have lasted forever. Adam did not believe God's promises or warnings.

That was introduced in the Law of Moses, the covenant on Mount Sinai.

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Yes, but it was (IMO) a republication of the original Law given to Adam in the garden. Just more details in the Mosaic Law than the Creation Law.

That covenant was made only with a specific people at a specific time.

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Yes, because the nation of Israel was an elect people in the eyes of God. For the Mosaic Law was used by God to draw an elect remnant of Jews, to knowledge of their guilt and their need of a Saviour.

Excluded from that covenant would be all peoples before Sinai, and all gentile peoples after Sinai.

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All peoples born of Adam, are born accountable under the original Covenant of Works. However, the Law was given by God to only draw an elect remnant from the nation of Israel, to their need of a Saviour, that none of the other heathen nations knew . . you are correct.

You would also think that the New Testament would have at least ONE reference to "keep the Sabbath day" if it was something that needed to be introduced to Gentiles. But is there even one such mention? No, Not in a positive way, at least.

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Well, that is because "keeping" the Sabbath would be an oxymoron. The principle of the Sabbath, is enjoying a divine day of rest. The Law commands the Sabbath, not as a rule, so much as a promise for those who know God.

Mankind are the guilty parties for making the Sabbath a legalism instead of a joy.

We do have multiple references telling us that things like Sabbath days no longer matter.

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Depends on who the references are directed towards. To reprobates, it is a condemnation. To regenerate souls, the instructions of the Sabbath are a joy and rest.

Here are two such examples:

Romans 14:5-6 KJV
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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Yep, what I say . . .

If you choose to observe any or all of these things, they can be of value 1) if one learns what they represent, of what they foretell of things to come, and 2) also that one does not get confused and substitute these over the blood of Christ, thus missing the whole point of the covenant of life all together.

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Exactly.

Nang, or Keypurr, et al, do you have even one New Testament passage that tells us that we should be observing the law of Moses, or any of the sabbath days, in clear language? Otherwise, compared to (at least) the two passages above, you wouldn't want to be making up your own doctrin where God has already told us what he wants in scripture.

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The moral and holy standards of God, are written upon the hearts of the regenerate. No longer is observance of the Law of God a legalistic duty, but such becomes the result and evidence of faith and repentance. A good teaching regarding the spiritual significance of the Sabbath, is Hebrews 3:18-4:6

7Spirits said:

What is required to follow Law?

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Regeneration. John 3:1-8

The gift of grace and faith from God establishes the Law. Romans 27-31

The Law of God is not bad. The only thing bad about God's moral and holy standards (commands) is that we, as totally depraved sinners, cannot keep the Law unto salvation.

We are only saved according to Jesus Christ, the author of the Law, performing both the Old Covenant of Lawkeeping as well as the New Covenant of Grace on our behalf.

7Spirits said:

So good that he messed up? So responsible that he's the father of evil?

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Solely responsible for sin and death in this world, yes.

(See my last signature line.)

Nang said:

Solely responsible for sin and death in this world, yes.

(See my last signature line.)

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Soley responsible for sin?

1 John 3:8 is all that is needed to show your error.