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Thread: BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 8 thru 10)

  1. #16
    Old Timer RightIdea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
    Just because I happen to be able to distinguish between "figurative" language and language that is to be taken "literally" I am accused of not believing the Bible.

    In His grace,--Jerry
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    Yeah, sure you can distinguish them.

    You take artistic, poetic writings full of hyperbole and you interpret those as literal. And you take historical narratives describing specific events and you take those as figurative.

    Makes perfect sense! :LoJo:
    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.

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    TOL Subscriber chatmaggot's Avatar
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    Jerry,

    Again...have you ever read The Plot?
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Old Timer RightIdea's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot
    Jerry,

    Again...have you ever read The Plot?
    At the risk of sounding hypocritical because there's no way I could contribute.... but I wonder if perhaps some one might start a "fund" to chip in and get him a copy. LOL
    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.

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    Old Timer RightIdea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightIdea
    Yeah, sure you can distinguish them.

    You take artistic, poetic writings full of hyperbole and you interpret those as literal. And you take historical narratives describing specific events and you take those as figurative.

    Makes perfect sense! :LoJo:
    And Jerry, I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think you should interpret artistic, poetic writings full of hyperbole as being literal, while historical narratives describing specific events shoudl be taken figuratively.

    Please explain your rationale behind this. Because the only explanation I can come up with is that your'e desperately looking for any verse that fits your preconceived notion, even if you have to refer to poetry as literal and history as figurative, to force the square peg into the round hole. And that, brother, is textbook eisegesis.

    But if you can explain otherwise, we're all ears.
    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.

  5. #20
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightIdea
    At the risk of sounding hypocritical because there's no way I could contribute.... but I wonder if perhaps some one might start a "fund" to chip in and get him a copy. LOL
    It would be a waste; he wouldn't read it.

  6. #21
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
    Just because I happen to be able to distinguish between "figurative" language and language that is to be taken "literally" I am accused of not believing the Bible.
    As RightIdea has pointed out, you tend to take figuratively statements literally and literal narratives figuratively to force-fit it to your Settled-View paradigm.

    That is how I am attacked over and over.But when it comes to their ideas they do not hesitate to say that the Lord made prophecies but yet He is unfaithful when it comes to fulfilling those prophecies.
    Hypocrite, no Open Viewer has said that any prophecies go unfulfilled because God is unfaithful. Should God have followed through with His promise to destroy Nineveh, despite their repentance, to prove to Jerry Shugart that He is faithful?

    They have no answers so they revert to name calling and saying that anyone who does not agree with them does not believe what the Bible says.
    Jerry, God says plain as day in Jeremiah 18:1-10 that He will repent of what He thought he would do, and what He said He would do, if people repent of (or turn to) wickedness. (And there are many examples in the Bible of God doing just that!) But like Israel, you don't believe Him when He says this, and you have to rewrite history where He has done this.

  7. #22
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo
    Hypocrite, no Open Viewer has said that any prophecies go unfulfilled because God is unfaithful. Should God have followed through with His promise to destroy Nineveh, despite their repentance, to prove to Jerry Shugart that He is faithful?
    Ouch!

    Jerry?
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  8. #23
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Freak, you know?
    Yes, I do know.

    Where did I ever say that? Since it's wrong, if you can quote me on that, you'd have me. (But what's funny is, the two halfs of that quote don't even contradict each other.
    You stated (note the bold):

    "The key Greek words are εδει (δει, had to) πληρωθηναι (be fulfilled). Itís been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and Iíve lost much of the little skill I had, but I still enjoy struggling with translation."

    Bob, you admitted it's been twenty years. You admitted you have lost "much" of the skill. What does this tell YOU? For that matter what does that tell US?

    Don't mind me though, I'm sleep deprived!
    Okay.

    Moving forward...you stated:

    "A month later, I dropped out of Arizona State University and left a job designing simulation software for the Apache Helicopter to move my family to Colorado so that I could study Scripture with Bob at his unaccredited Derby School of Theology (which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado, and in my opinion, the best theological training in America)."

    You have resorted to the use of the ancient languages in this debate. Why wouldn't YOU? Did you not tell us that you attended a school "which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado." But what we found interesting was the admission:

    Itís been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and Iíve lost much of the little skill I had.

    In my personal opinion (and which Sam is calling you on) you are weak in the area of languauges (this you admit) and yet you continue to turn to your understanding of the Greek text.

    You resorting to your understanding of the ancient languages in the debate, in light of these known facts (see above), is strange.

    Thanks for the questions.
    Jesus Loves You

  9. #24
    Old Timer RightIdea's Avatar
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    That's it????? You gotta be kidding me!

    "A month later, I dropped out of Arizona State University and left a job designing simulation software for the Apache Helicopter to move my family to Colorado so that I could study Scripture with Bob at his unaccredited Derby School of Theology (which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado, and in my opinion, the best theological training in America)."
    This is his biography! And nowhere does he say that he studied Greek extensively at Derby! He only said that Derby provides an excellent Greek education!

    Later, while actually making arguments, Bob says:

    Itís been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and Iíve lost much of the little skill I had.
    Making it very clear where he stands on this, so that no one thinks he is lifting himself up as something he is not. Bob avoids any confusion here by saying openly that he doesn't have a strong Greek background! Bob goes out of his way to show humility in regards to his own authority to debate Greek, proceding using context and reason rather than some claim to fame like a degree or something, which would only boil down to saying "because I told you so."

    And now you (and Lamerson) are going to make this absurd accusation? Please, you are both embarassing yourself. This is as lame as it gets.
    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.

  10. #25
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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  11. #26
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightIdea
    And now you (and Lamerson) are going to make this absurd accusation? Please, you are both embarassing yourself. This is as lame as it gets.
    They gotta try something!
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  12. #27
    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    Yes, I do know.
    Freak, no you don't. This will be a good lesson for you on how easy it is to be confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    You stated (note the bold):
    "The key Greek words are εδει (δει, had to) πληρωθηναι (be fulfilled). Itís been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and Iíve lost much of the little skill I had, but I still enjoy struggling with translation."
    Bob, you admitted it's been twenty years. You admitted you have lost "much" of the skill. What does this tell YOU? For that matter what does that tell US?
    Okay.
    Moving forward...you stated:
    "A month later, I dropped out of Arizona State University and left a job designing simulation software for the Apache Helicopter to move my family to Colorado so that I could study Scripture with Bob at his unaccredited Derby School of Theology (which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado, and in my opinion, the best theological training in America)."

    Itís been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and Iíve lost much of the little skill I had.

    In my personal opinion (and which Sam is calling you on) you are weak in the area of languauges (this you admit) and yet you continue to turn to your understanding of the Greek text.
    Freak, my Greek classes from twenty years ago do not equate to Bob Hill providing the best Greek education available for 30 years. I would think after all the fuss, you would have looked at that. I took a year at Nyack College in 1977-78, and rec'd As in both semesters as I recall (from a great professor). Then in 1985 I moved to Colorado, and sat in on a few months worth of Bob Hill's classes, as my work schedule permitted, over a period of two years or so. If you can find a contradiction there, or if there was ANYTHING unclear about what I originally wrote, I'd be interested.

    Regarding my argument with Sam over John 13:19, he has not once addressed my point that virtually all Bible translations agree with me, and only one rather loose translation goes with him. That would be a good point for him to respond to, no? And finally, the issue we are debating, the meaning of the absence of a predicate nominative, is an issue for a first semester Greek student. 3,476 years worth of Greek classes would not make the issue more clear than it would be after the first few weeks.

    -Bob
    Last edited by Bob Enyart; September 7th, 2005 at 09:19 PM. Reason: changed "for two years" to "over a period of two years"
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

  13. #28
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Freak, my Greek classes from twenty years ago do not equate to Bob Hill providing the best Greek education available for 30 years.
    You clearly stated: "I took a couple years of Greek." Then you tell us you studied the Scriptures at Hill's school (where one can receive top Greek training). Studying Scripture formally, would include, the studying of languages. Would it not? That is why we came to this conclusion.

    Bob, not to rain on your parade, but two years does not qualify you, I'm afraid, to debate an individual who clearly understands the ancient languages (when probing the Greek text as you both are doing). He has called you on some specifics. Would you like to go over them briefly? It's all in the debate.
    Jesus Loves You

  14. #29
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Freak, do you ever read the posts that are made here on TOL?

    Just curious.
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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Freak, do you ever read the posts that are made here on TOL?

    Just curious.
    Hello Knight. Making some observations, that's all.
    Jesus Loves You

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