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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Exclamation BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 8 thru 10)

    Openness Theology - Does God Know Your Entire Future? - Battle Royale X
    S. Lamerson vs. B. Enyart

    Discuss rounds 8 thru 10 of BR X here!

    Let's try our best to stay on track and discuss/debate the content that is being posted in BR X.

    for:
    Battle Talk ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3).

    Battle Talk ~ BRX (rounds 4 thru 7).
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    If you want, go to the webpage http://www.rctr.org/ap5.htm and listen to debate between William Lane Craig and Brian Edwards. It is found about halfway down the page. The reason I bring this up is because I think it is relevant to the current debate. The Craig/Edwards debate is supposed to be about the resurrection. You will see that after Craig gives his argument for the resurrection it is Edwards turn to discount the resurrection. He does nothing of the sort. Edwards quickly turns the debate into the topic of does God exist. (By the way Edwards is a former Christian and a former Sunday school administrator who lost his faith after the passing of his mother and subsequently going to college and "seeing the light")…

    At about the 36-37 minute mark Edwards is giving his final argument and brings up the following argument (not a direct quote) on why God cannot exist…

    "One has to assume that God is omniscient, all powerful, etc…"

    Basically the OMNI's and IM's that Bob has been talking about and has shown that they are not biblical but pagan in their origin.

    He goes on to say…

    "If God is omniscient then He is incapable of thought…because if you know everything…you cannot think…because there is nothing to think about. Because to think about things there would have to be questions and God cannot have any questions. So God creates man and He must know that this is going to go horribly wrong and that He will then have to come as a man to be crucified etc.."

    He then says…

    "I just have to say that this is all just so…unbelievable…and unacceptable…that one simply has to reject it [that God exists]."

    Thank you Bob Enyart for showing me that omniscience isn't biblical and that this Edwards has merely been indoctrinated through Aristotelian thought. I can only imagine that he, like so many, was taught the OMNI's and IM's growing up and when he went to college and began to think through the arguments he unfortunately decided to reject the Bible rather than reject the OMNI's and IM's not knowing as you have shown to me that they are unbiblical.

    "If God is all knowing then He is incapable of thought." Wow! I wonder if Sam also believes this?

    I know something else that is incapable of thought…a potato! My God is much more powerful than a potato. How about yours?
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot
    "One has to assume that God is omniscient, all powerful, etc…"
    Basically the OMNI's and IM's that Bob has been talking about and has shown that they are not biblical but pagan in their origin.
    Edwards goes on to say, "If God is omniscient then He is incapable of thought…"
    He then says…
    "I just have to say that this is all just so…unbelievable…and unacceptable…that one simply has to reject it [that God exists]."
    Thank you Bob Enyart for showing me that omniscience isn't biblical and that this Edwards has merely been indoctrinated through Aristotelian thought... he unfortunately decided to reject the Bible rather than reject the OMNI's and IM's...
    "If God is all knowing then He is incapable of thought." Wow! I wonder if Sam also believes this?
    I think the average Settler would quickly say that God cannot think, IF HE FEARED that admitting the opposite would threaten his defense of immutability.

    By the way, this weekend a Christian in Chicago tried sharing the Gospel with a Buddhist woman, and he informed me that he soon was unsure how to proceed. But the Buddhist said that she believed events occurred by fate (which is not rigorously Buddhist, but very popular among them; previous lives left them with only one course of action in this life; etc.). Then, the Christian figured out exactly how to proceed. He recalled this debate and used the five biblical attributes of God: Living, Personal, Relational, Good, and Loving, and that immediately showed the difference between impersonal Buddhism and the living God of relationship! Please pray for this unnamed Buddhist woman, that this biblical presentation of Christianity may reach her in ways that philosophic Christianity have not.

    And chat, thanks for your encouragement... (but have you ever thought of coming up with a less repulsive username? ).

    -Bob
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    Question We figured it out in Armenia...

    Just because the playwright/director knows the plot doesn't mean he doesn't watch and wonder how the actors will play their roles. Often he will coach the actors as they play their parts and replace actors who can't play the part correctly. All of which takes a lot of thought, planning, and intervention on HIS part; as well as, a lot of foresight to get the desired results. The plan is perfected through his vision(foresight) combined with his work(relationships). His own personality requires NO change and remains perfect(without mistakes/flaws) forever no matter how many of the actors believe he's not handling things correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    I think the average Settler would quickly say that God cannot think, IF HE FEARED that admitting the opposite would threaten his defense of immutability.

    -Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobE
    Just because the playwright/director knows the plot doesn't mean he doesn't watch and wonder how the actors will play their roles. Often he will coach the actors as they play their parts and replace actors who can't play the part correctly. All of which takes a lot of thought, planning, and intervention on HIS part; as well as, a lot of foresight to get the desired results. The plan is perfected through his vision(foresight) combined with his work(relationships). His own personality requires NO change and remains perfect(without mistakes/flaws) forever no matter how many of the actors believe he's not handling things correctly.
    1 Soap Operas 13:13
    And the director said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the latest script draft of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your starring role on "Days of Our Kingdom" forever.
    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.

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    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    One Crow Too Many

    Lee_Merrill wrote: "about how the rooster crowed twice, not once..."

    Lee, I've read your argument, but rather than address it (I'm busy with Sam right now), I'd prefer to ask you about the text you're referring to. In fact, if any of Settlers in the Grandstands (including all Calvinists of course) can answer this, that would be great.

    Open Viewers, let's let THEM work at this... and no HINTS! (RIdea & D2I, this means you both also!).

    You referenced Mark 14:72 "Before the rooster crows TWICE, you will deny Me three times." Skeptics have often used this to attack the veracity of the Gospels, pointing out that elsewhere, we read, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me" Luke 22:34, as also in Mat. 26:34 & John 18:27.

    Can you please answer the Skeptics for us, reasonably showing that the Scripture is not contradicting itself?

    Thanks, -Bob
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    Over 750 post club lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Lee_Merrill wrote: "about how the rooster crowed twice, not once..."

    Lee, I've read your argument, but rather than address it (I'm busy with Sam right now), I'd prefer to ask you about the text you're referring to.
    As indicated, I meant Mark 14, verses 30 and 72, thus this cannot be simply character solidification and God arranging circumstances. Jesus also confirmed Peter's saying "you know all things," with just this incident of Peter's denial in view, with another prediction of Peter's actions in the future. And Peter didn't reply "I do hope it turns out that way." He took it as a sure prophecy, as people did in their (mistaken) interpretation of what Jesus said further, about John. And John didn't say "No, Jesus is estimating" either! He said "Let's read more carefully Jesus' statement," as if exactly what he said, was sure and certain. As it was...

    Skeptics have often used this to attack the veracity of the Gospels, pointing out that elsewhere...
    Well, this is like the one or two donkeys (Mk. 11:7, Mt. 21:2), or the one or two demoniacs (Mt. 8:28, Mk. 5:2). It seems the people in those days didn't insist on photographic realism from their reporters!

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions from which we receive no word to bring away." (George MacDonald)

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    I must say that I am highly disapointed in this debate. We're in the last wrap up stages here, and still Enyart continues to talk past, dodge, and avoid issues. I know that this site is rabidly pro-Enyart and the results will surprise the heck out of me if they don't reflect that, but this debate has not even been close, Dr Lamerson has dominated and is the only one being up front in his dealings in the debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean Todd
    I must say that I am highly disapointed in this debate. We're in the last wrap up stages here, and still Enyart continues to talk past, dodge, and avoid issues. I know that this site is rabidly pro-Enyart and the results will surprise the heck out of me if they don't reflect that, but this debate has not even been close, Dr Lamerson has dominated and is the only one being up front in his dealings in the debate.
    Todd, the debate is whether or not God knows the ENTIRE future. Sam has yet to show that God knows the ENTIRE future, so how can he be dominating?

    BTW, my siggy line still awaits you...
    "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    The problem is that Rev. Enyart wants to play both sides of the game. He tells us in one post about his “Greek from twenty years ago.” Then a few posts later he tells us that he has had one of the best Greek educations in Colorado.
    I know, strange.

    All I asked, and continue to ask is that Rev. Enyart reply to my specific arguments. I have made every attempt to number them and to make them clear.
    My point was, and is, that while Rev. Enyart certainly has many gifts from the Lord, his gifts are different from mine. One of my gifts is in linguistics. Rev. Enyart is simply wrong in this area. Jesus very clearly meant to claim that his deity rested upon his ability to predict the future. The grammar proves this.
    Yes! Jesus Christ, DID claim Deity thereby His ability to know (predict) the future.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    Quoting: "Enyart... tells us in one post about his 'Greek from twenty years ago.' Then a few posts later he tells us that he has had one of the best Greek educations in Colorado."

    Freak then adds: I know, strange.
    Freak, you know? Where did I ever say that? Since it's wrong, if you can quote me on that, you'd have me . (But what's funny is, the two halfs of that quote don't even contradict each other .)

    Don't mind me though, I'm sleep deprived! (By the way, you can always tell how many nights I've gone with too little sleep by how many smilies I put in a post !

    -Bob
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Freak, you know?
    Yes, I do know.

    Where did I ever say that? Since it's wrong, if you can quote me on that, you'd have me. (But what's funny is, the two halfs of that quote don't even contradict each other.
    You stated (note the bold):

    "The key Greek words are εδει (δει, had to) πληρωθηναι (be fulfilled). It’s been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and I’ve lost much of the little skill I had, but I still enjoy struggling with translation."

    Bob, you admitted it's been twenty years. You admitted you have lost "much" of the skill. What does this tell YOU? For that matter what does that tell US?

    Don't mind me though, I'm sleep deprived!
    Okay.

    Moving forward...you stated:

    "A month later, I dropped out of Arizona State University and left a job designing simulation software for the Apache Helicopter to move my family to Colorado so that I could study Scripture with Bob at his unaccredited Derby School of Theology (which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado, and in my opinion, the best theological training in America)."

    You have resorted to the use of the ancient languages in this debate. Why wouldn't YOU? Did you not tell us that you attended a school "which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado." But what we found interesting was the admission:

    It’s been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and I’ve lost much of the little skill I had.

    In my personal opinion (and which Sam is calling you on) you are weak in the area of languauges (this you admit) and yet you continue to turn to your understanding of the Greek text.

    You resorting to your understanding of the ancient languages in the debate, in light of these known facts (see above), is strange.

    Thanks for the questions.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    Yes, I do know.
    Freak, no you don't. This will be a good lesson for you on how easy it is to be confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    You stated (note the bold):
    "The key Greek words are εδει (δει, had to) πληρωθηναι (be fulfilled). It’s been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and I’ve lost much of the little skill I had, but I still enjoy struggling with translation."
    Bob, you admitted it's been twenty years. You admitted you have lost "much" of the skill. What does this tell YOU? For that matter what does that tell US?
    Okay.
    Moving forward...you stated:
    "A month later, I dropped out of Arizona State University and left a job designing simulation software for the Apache Helicopter to move my family to Colorado so that I could study Scripture with Bob at his unaccredited Derby School of Theology (which for thirty years has provided unequivocally the strongest Greek education available in Colorado, and in my opinion, the best theological training in America)."

    It’s been twenty years since I took a couple years of Greek, and I’ve lost much of the little skill I had.

    In my personal opinion (and which Sam is calling you on) you are weak in the area of languauges (this you admit) and yet you continue to turn to your understanding of the Greek text.
    Freak, my Greek classes from twenty years ago do not equate to Bob Hill providing the best Greek education available for 30 years. I would think after all the fuss, you would have looked at that. I took a year at Nyack College in 1977-78, and rec'd As in both semesters as I recall (from a great professor). Then in 1985 I moved to Colorado, and sat in on a few months worth of Bob Hill's classes, as my work schedule permitted, over a period of two years or so. If you can find a contradiction there, or if there was ANYTHING unclear about what I originally wrote, I'd be interested.

    Regarding my argument with Sam over John 13:19, he has not once addressed my point that virtually all Bible translations agree with me, and only one rather loose translation goes with him. That would be a good point for him to respond to, no? And finally, the issue we are debating, the meaning of the absence of a predicate nominative, is an issue for a first semester Greek student. 3,476 years worth of Greek classes would not make the issue more clear than it would be after the first few weeks.

    -Bob
    Last edited by Bob Enyart; September 7th, 2005 at 09:19 PM. Reason: changed "for two years" to "over a period of two years"
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Freak, my Greek classes from twenty years ago do not equate to Bob Hill providing the best Greek education available for 30 years.
    You clearly stated: "I took a couple years of Greek." Then you tell us you studied the Scriptures at Hill's school (where one can receive top Greek training). Studying Scripture formally, would include, the studying of languages. Would it not? That is why we came to this conclusion.

    Bob, not to rain on your parade, but two years does not qualify you, I'm afraid, to debate an individual who clearly understands the ancient languages (when probing the Greek text as you both are doing). He has called you on some specifics. Would you like to go over them briefly? It's all in the debate.
    Jesus Loves You

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freak
    I know, strange.
    Freak what you just agreed with was never said.

    [Freak] Were you aware of that? [/freak]
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