Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

everready

everready

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Maybe that was a wrong choice of words rather than a gate to hell i should have said one of the entrances to hell, either way we're talking about eternity here aren't we, so far it appears all references are being made to things that are temporal "things that are seen" in the eternity things go on for ever and ever "things that are not seen" unless of course your reading a new age version of Gods word designed by a couple of heretics named Westcott & Hort. where they have God taking a back seat to philosophy "their philosophy"

everready
 
Krsto

Krsto

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God's Truth said:
I am not putting words in your mouth. Please stop making up things, saying I am doing something I am not.

You do not trust the Bible. I got it.
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You accused me of having a "worm waiting doctrine", whatever that is, when I don't. That's putting words in my mouth.

I don't trust the bible to do what? Explain a scientific process in a way that makes sense to us but wouldn't make sense to them 2000 years ago? If that's what you mean then yes, I don't trust the bible to do that. Why would I? Why would anyone?
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Timotheos said:
I don't change eternal punishment to eternal conscious torment. The false teachers who believe in eternal conscious torment craftily change eternal punishment into eternal conscious torment.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.

I'm not up to anything shifty, why can't we both be nice to one another?
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I am opposed to you...I see you as somebody whose purpose is deceive poor sinners to their eternal loss...you say to the wicked man "go thy way, it will be well with you"
 
Krsto

Krsto

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everready said:
Maybe that was a wrong choice of words rather than a gate to hell i should have said one of the entrances to hell, either way we're talking about eternity here aren't we, so far it appears all references are being made to things that are temporal "things that are seen" in the eternity things go on for ever and ever "things that are not seen" unless of course your reading a new age version of Gods word designed by a couple of heretics named Westcott & Hort. where they have God taking a back seat to philosophy "their philosophy"

everready
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You can read from any manuscript you want, W&H, Textus Receptus, you name it. Hell is the grave, not some place that has molten lava, and aionios does not mean "eternity", it means "an undefined period of time, which can include eternity", and, eternal punishment does not mean punishment that never ends but a punishment that has eternal consequences, i.e., it can't be reversed. Death and rotting in the grave , even without a consciousness that experiences torment after death, is still eternal punishment. The wages of sin is (eternal) death but the free gift of God in Christ Jesus is eternal life, according to Paul.
 
Krsto

Krsto

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Totton Linnet said:
I am opposed to you...I see you as somebody whose purpose is deceive poor sinners to their eternal loss...you say to the wicked man "go thy way, it will be well with you"
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Funny thing coming from someone who believes in a "wider mercy".:carryon:
 
T

Timotheos

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Totton Linnet said:
I am opposed to you...I see you as somebody whose purpose is deceive poor sinners to their eternal loss...you say to the wicked man "go thy way, it will be well with you"
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I believe that God will destroy the wicked. Can you explain to me how this is saying "it will be well with you"? That makes zero sense.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Krsto said:
Funny thing coming from someone who believes in a "wider mercy".:carryon:
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They are clear different subjects, believing as I do in the wider mercy I am perfectly satisfied that those who do find themselves in torment wil totally deserve it.

I have no hesitation in saying the wicked will be turned into hell....I do not need to get sidetracked into who or for what...that is for God to judge. But I CAN point to a SURE salvation.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Timotheos said:
I believe that God will destroy the wicked. Can you explain to me how this is saying "it will be well with you"? That makes zero sense.
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They are already dead, they will be in their graves, their souls in the place where departed souls go.

But they will be resurrected for judgement. That does not make an atom of sense if the judgement is as you say death.

Wicked sinners believe anyway that death and the grave is all that awaits them....no judgement, no being brought to account, no punishment....you confirm this to them. But it is a lie.

To be salted with fire is all a soul is fit for that has sated itself with evil. The bible says they will be fitted with bodies fit for eternal punishment.
 
T

Timotheos

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Totton Linnet said:
It was Christ who taught that the wicked will be in torment and will desire but the smallest relief from their torment but it will be denied them.

Mind what you accuse Christ of.
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You misunderstood me.

I am not accusing Christ of anything. And I am not accusing you of anything either. And I hope that I don't offend you by pointing out that you are not Jesus Christ.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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If to teach that wicked will be in torment is a sad reflection then it was Christ who taught it.

Do you deny that Christ taught that the rich man when he died was in the place of torment?
 
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Timotheos

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Totton Linnet said:
If to teach that wicked will be in torment is a sad reflection then it was Christ who taught it.

Do you deny that Christ taught that the rich man when he died was in the place of torment?
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In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man died. So we know that the rich man was dead, not alive. But in this parable, the rich man goes to Hades (not Hell) after he dies and has a lively conversation with Abraham there. (Who is evidently also in Hell, according to your view) In this conversation it is revealed that the rich man has some brothers who are still alive. So, whatever this story is, it is not a picture of eternal conscious torment after judgment. Since the brothers are still alive, Judgment Day has not yet occurred.

Concerning the final fate of the wicked, do you deny that Christ said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Hell)"? Well, if Christ says that the bodies and the souls of the wicked will be destroyed, who are you to tell him that they are not destroyed? So give me a break, because you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Timotheos said:
In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man died. So we know that the rich man was dead, not alive. But in this parable, the rich man goes to Hades (not Hell) after he dies and has a lively conversation with Abraham there. (Who is evidently also in Hell, according to your view) In this conversation it is revealed that the rich man has some brothers who are still alive. So, whatever this story is, it is not a picture of eternal conscious torment after judgment. Since the brothers are still alive, Judgment Day has not yet occurred.

Concerning the final fate of the wicked, do you deny that Christ said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Hell)"? Well, if Christ says that the bodies and the souls of the wicked will be destroyed, who are you to tell him that they are not destroyed? So give me a break, because you don't know what you are talking about.
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The was a gulf between Abraham and the rich man. The judgement wasn't to come for the judgement was that they had Moses and the prophets but they paid no heed.

And this is crooked talk from you for by this you say there are now many in torment who have been there at least for 2 thousand years already and will be there till judgement day.

I believe in the destruction of body and soul in hell.....the bible says it is everlasting destruction.
 
T

Timotheos

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Totton Linnet said:
The was a gulf between Abraham and the rich man. The judgement wasn't to come for the judgement was that they had Moses and the prophets but they paid no heed.

And this is crooked talk from you for by this you say there are now many in torment who have been there at least for 2 thousand years already and will be there till judgement day.

I believe in the destruction of body and soul in hell.....the bible says it is everlasting destruction.
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I'm tired of your accusations. The Bible is clear. The wages of sin is death. But I am finished. The church wants to believe in eternal torture in hell. I'm tired of explaining the truth to people who don't want to know the truth. You can believe whatever you want. This is sad and pathetic.
 
Krsto

Krsto

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Totton Linnet said:
If to teach that wicked will be in torment is a sad reflection then it was Christ who taught it.

Do you deny that Christ taught that the rich man when he died was in the place of torment?
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Jesus was quoting a popular fable the Jews had picked up while in Egypt since there was one part of it that expressed the spiritual truth that he was trying to get across, that people have an opportunity to respond to God while alive but after death it's too late. The Jews of his time understood that he was not teaching about the conditions of hell. If you went to a church service and the pastor showed a clip from Star Wars to bring out some spiritual truth would you think everything in that clip was meant to be taken as spiritual truth?
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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Krsto said:
You accused me of having a "worm waiting doctrine", whatever that is, when I don't. That's putting words in my mouth.

I don't trust the bible to do what? Explain a scientific process in a way that makes sense to us but wouldn't make sense to them 2000 years ago? If that's what you mean then yes, I don't trust the bible to do that. Why would I? Why would anyone?
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Sounds to me as if you have a worm waiting doctrine:

Krsto said:
You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. The worm and the fire represent decomposition. In those days they didn't understand biology like we do, yet they could see it happening. The maggots that tend to collect around dead bodies they no doubt thought was what caused the decomposition since they couldn't see the actual bacteria. Given their lack of understanding and coupled with their experience of rotting animal and people corpses it's not too hard to see why they might call it worms and fire.

Get it?
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God's Truth

God's Truth

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Krsto said:
This is why you need to use a bible dictionary. You don't know the meaning of the word. If you're too lazy to look it up how do you expect to have any credibility?
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The synonym for eternal is everlasting. I do not need a Bible dictionary to know that.
 
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