Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

God's Truth

New member
If I tell you what I think Revelation 14:11 says, will you finally address John 3:16?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Check yes or no :crackup:
I'm a little tired of skipping to your rope.

I have explained that scripture to you before, but you ignore it as you do the scriptures.

Those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life.

Those who do not believe will have eternal torture.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
I just want an answer, not smoke and mirrors, as usual. I guess you don't have straight answers, you just change the subject and duck and weave.
 

Timotheos

New member
I have explained that scripture to you before, but you ignore it as you do the scriptures.

Those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life.

Those who do not believe will have eternal torture.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life. It says that they will not perish. It doesn't say that those who do not believe will have eternal torture, it says they will perish. That is exactly what I've been saying.

Matthew 25:46 doesn't agree with your view either. It says eternal punishment, not eternal torment. Death is the punishment, and it is eternal. Matthew 25:46 agrees with the true doctrine that the lost will perish.

Here is John 3:16 again, so you can see the word "perish" which you ignored:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:16 proves that your doctrine is false.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Certainly one method of describing those who are tormented in flames forever would be: "perishing," by fire, right? I'd say that's the case, for sure.
 

Timotheos

New member
I just want an answer, not smoke and mirrors, as usual. I guess you don't have straight answers, you just change the subject and duck and weave.

And you duck and weave and refuse to admit that John 3:16 proves you wrong. I believe John 3:16 so I can't believe your false doctrine that contradicts John 3:16.

You refuse to even address John 3:16. Talk about ducking and weaving.
 

Timotheos

New member
Certainly one method of describing those who are tormented in flames forever would be: "perishing," by fire, right? I'd say that's the case, for sure.

Nope. In order to be tormented, they could not have perished. If they perished in the flames, they wouldn't experience the torment of the flames. Because they would be dead.
 

Timotheos

New member
I just want an answer, not smoke and mirrors, as usual. I guess you don't have straight answers, you just change the subject and duck and weave.

You know the deal. When you address John 3:16, I will address Rev 14:11.

I won't skip to your rope. I keep on answering every objection you guys have, and you refuse to address even one objection I have to the false doctrine of eternal torture.
 

Timotheos

New member
John 3:16 says that whose who believe in Jesus will have eternal life. This means that those who don't believe in Jesus will not have eternal life. If they do not have eternal life, this means that they CAN'T have eternal life in hell being tortured forever. John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus will not perish. This means that those who don't believe in Jesus WILL perish. They will not have eternal life in hell being tortured alive, because they will have perished. John 3:16 proves that your doctrine is wrong. These are the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ proves that your doctrine is wrong.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
As long as you keep your hard head you won't need that helmet you're wearing in the photo. Fruit and vegetables are perishable, but don't cease to exist while they're perishing. I believe that God causes men to perish for eternity, through torment of flames, in the Lake of Fire His Word describes. I don't relish the idea, but it is clearly there. I don't deny His Word.
 

God's Truth

New member
If you say so. I don't recall saying that. Can you show me where I said that? I know that I said that the Bible never says that the lost go to hell where they suffer for eternity. Is this what you are referring to?
You have said it, and worse.
Can you show me where in the Bible it says "Humans live on in the spirit after the death of the body"? I know that the Bible says "The soul who sins shall die". If you want, I can show you where the Bible says this.
I will give the scriptures again in my next post.
I feel bad for them, but I feel that God's judgment will be just when these angels are judged.
There enchainment has been for hundreds of years. Do you think the punishment fits the crime, or do you think that God has enchained them long enough?
Yes, Peter is talking about swift destruction. What do you mean by "annihilation"? The false teachers will be swiftly destroyed. That is what I believe, because that is what the Bible says. If you believe that they won't be destroyed, but will be kept forever in hell being tormented alive instead of being destroyed, how do you feel about Peter's words that specifically say that they will be destroyed instead of being eternally tormented alive?
You believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. No wonder you have a hard time.
The scriptures say the angels are held for judgment with chains. However, you say the dead are held for judgment with rest. The scriptures do not say that the unrighteous are held with rest.
Actually, I merely asked you to tell me where the Bible says that we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies. You couldn't show me why you believe this is true. If you show me a Bible verse that says "We have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies", I will happily believe you. I believe that we will be resurrected to real life when Jesus returns.
You have asked me before about scriptures proving our spirits live on, and I have given them to you.
I never said that. The truth is that I don't believe that God tortures the lost AT ALL. I believe that the lost will perish just as the Bible says. But if you know of a verse that says "God will torture people" let me know.
The Bible says they will be punished, and the Bible says they will be tortured.
What? When did I say this? I said that the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die, and the Bible does say this. Look it up for yourself in Ezekiel 18:4. Then I asked you to show me where the Bible says that we live as ghostly spirits when we die.
You are being deceitful. You are acting as if I am saying things that you have not said, then you say the same falseness you just lied about ever saying.
I believe that. Notice how it never says "Their torment will last forever", also notice that it is talking about a specific subset of people, those who worship the beast and receive his mark, not every person who ever lived.
No rest day or night; the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.
Is that really the best verse you have? It doesn't say "The lost will go to hell when they die where they will live forever being tormented alive forever." The very BEST verse you have doesn't say what you want it to say, while every verse I've quoted actually does say what I believe. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", John 3:16 "whoever believes in him shall not perish" Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die", Matthew 7:13 "The way is wide that leads to destruction".

You don't have even one verse that agrees with your doctrine. But you expect me to believe you anyway? Face it, your doctrine is unbiblical.
You just lied about the scriptures.
 

Timotheos

New member
As long as you keep your hard head you won't need that helmet you're wearing in the photo. Fruit and vegetables are perishable, but don't cease to exist while they're perishing. I believe that God causes men to perish for eternity, through torment of flames, in the Lake of Fire His Word describes. I don't relish the idea, but it is clearly there. I don't deny His Word.

John 3:16

When you refute John 3:16, and all of the other scriptures that prove that the lost will perish, then I will believe you. When a person perishes, they die. A dead person can not experience torment. I would be pretty soft-headed if I believed you instead of the Bible, when you present no proof at all. By the way, I always wear a helmet when I ride my Harley. My life is too precious to my family for me to risk losing my life. They depend on me.
 

God's Truth

New member
What happens to us after we die?

Do we go to heaven after we die?
Do we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies?


This post is a list of scriptures for you to meditate on. These scriptures are many that show us we have spirits that do live apart from the body and have thinking and understanding consciousness.

Some “Christians” falsely believe in “soul sleep.” The leaders of these Christians have invented that term. They believe that the spirit inside humans cannot live outside the body, and as such ceases to live on. They believe there is no consciousness of the spirit apart from the body. These people believe in what I call a doctrine of death.

Our Spirits Live

Yes, life continues after the death of the body.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Did you read that? Jesus says they shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces, and that they do not enter. If men cannot enter heaven, then why does Jesus say what he says?

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:

Mark 9:2-6

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

Acts 23:8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)

Did you read that? The Pharisees acknowledge that there are angels and spirits. If there is no such thing as spirits living outside of our bodies, then how is it that the Pharisees believe it and were not rebuked for believing it? From the scripture, we get that the Pharisees are commended for the belief in angels and spirits.

Read Mark 12:24-27 what Jesus replied to the Sadducees when they came to Jesus with a question about the resurrection. Read in Luke where Jesus says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Mark 12:24-27 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage: they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising---have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:34-38 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Jesus says God is the God of the living. You say they are dead. I believe God and not you.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus says he will give us water welling up to eternal life. You want me to believe that this water wells up to our death, and then begins again thousands of years later at the resurrection.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Jesus says to work for food that ENDURES TO eternal life. We do not work for food that endures to death in the ground then later an eternal life. How is it enduring if a person's life stops?

John 6:44-51
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Did you hear that? Those in the Old Testament ate the manna and died, but Jesus gives us bread that we may eat and not die.

John 6:53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Jesus says If a man eats his flesh and drinks his blood REMAINS in him, and he in us.

John 8:48-59

The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


Abraham saw Jesus’ day. If Abraham no longer lived, how did he see Jesus’ day?


John 12:26”Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."

This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father.

John 14:1-6. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father.

Jesus Christ who told us… “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going. I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:1, 2, 3, 4, 6)

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for them and that he will come back and takes them to be with him. We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen. See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. In addition, we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to his heavenly kingdom. See the following...

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 14:16-18

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This scripture Jesus says that he shall give another Comforter that may abide with them for ever, note the word for ever.

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of it."

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This scripture is in the passages where Jesus speaks to his disciples, before the guards come to arrest and have Jesus crucified. In addition, where is Jesus going? Jesus is going to heaven, of course!

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cane did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ. Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.
 

Timotheos

New member
What happens to us after we die?

Do we go to heaven after we die?
Do we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies?


This post is a list of scriptures for you to meditate on. These scriptures are many that show us we have spirits that do live apart from the body and have thinking and understanding consciousness.

Some “Christians” falsely believe in “soul sleep.” The leaders of these Christians have invented that term. They believe that the spirit inside humans cannot live outside the body, and as such ceases to live on. They believe there is no consciousness of the spirit apart from the body. These people believe in what I call a doctrine of death.

Our Spirits Live

Yes, life continues after the death of the body.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Did you read that? Jesus says they shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces, and that they do not enter. If men cannot enter heaven, then why does Jesus say what he says?

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:

Mark 9:2-6

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

Acts 23:8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)

Did you read that? The Pharisees acknowledge that there are angels and spirits. If there is no such thing as spirits living outside of our bodies, then how is it that the Pharisees believe it and were not rebuked for believing it? From the scripture, we get that the Pharisees are commended for the belief in angels and spirits.

Read Mark 12:24-27 what Jesus replied to the Sadducees when they came to Jesus with a question about the resurrection. Read in Luke where Jesus says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Mark 12:24-27 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage: they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising---have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:34-38 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Jesus says God is the God of the living. You say they are dead. I believe God and not you.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus says he will give us water welling up to eternal life. You want me to believe that this water wells up to our death, and then begins again thousands of years later at the resurrection.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Jesus says to work for food that ENDURES TO eternal life. We do not work for food that endures to death in the ground then later an eternal life. How is it enduring if a person's life stops?

John 6:44-51
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Did you hear that? Those in the Old Testament ate the manna and died, but Jesus gives us bread that we may eat and not die.

John 6:53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Jesus says If a man eats his flesh and drinks his blood REMAINS in him, and he in us.

John 8:48-59

The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


Abraham saw Jesus’ day. If Abraham no longer lived, how did he see Jesus’ day?


John 12:26”Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."

This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father.

John 14:1-6. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father.

Jesus Christ who told us… “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going. I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:1, 2, 3, 4, 6)

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for them and that he will come back and takes them to be with him. We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen. See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. In addition, we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to his heavenly kingdom. See the following...

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 14:16-18

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This scripture Jesus says that he shall give another Comforter that may abide with them for ever, note the word for ever.

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of it."

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This scripture is in the passages where Jesus speaks to his disciples, before the guards come to arrest and have Jesus crucified. In addition, where is Jesus going? Jesus is going to heaven, of course!

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cane did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ. Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.

Start by proving that John 3:16 is wrong, then we can talk about other scriptures that prove that those who do not inherit eternal life will perish.
 

everready

New member
i found this perhaps your a member more than a few Christians know about this man and his many false doctrines, are you a member of the Shepherds Chapel?

Arnold Murray is the "pastor" of a church called the Shepherd's Chapel out of Gravette, Arkansas, with over 200 television stations carrying his ministry.

Murray teaches the doctrine of annihilationism. This view teaches that all unbelievers will not be tormented eternally in Hell, but will completely disappear.

Christ, on the other hand, asserts that the unrighteous will suffer never-ending punishment in the lake of Fire (Matthew 25:41,46). Furthermore, this punishment is a conscious punishment according to Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 plainly warn... "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/arnold_murray.htm

everready
 

Timotheos

New member
i found this perhaps your a member more than a few Christians know about this man and his many false doctrines, are you a member of the Shepherds Chapel?


everready

No, I am not a member of Shepherds Chapel. Your website guy is a "King James Only" person and he appears to be a conspiracy theorist. I'm not really going to put a lot of faith in what he has to say!

More and more Evangelical Christians are discovering the truth that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment in hell. This is based on an honest and open reading of scripture. Do you think that it will be effective to try to paint me with the heretic brush just because someone else who may or may not be legitimate HAPPENS to hold the same view as I do? Don't you think it is possible that Arnold holds this view because he has read the Bible? I hold this view because I have read the Bible. It is as if I asked you if you were a follower of Adolf Hitler because Adolf Hitler also believed in eternal conscious torment in hell. (And it is true that Adolf Hitler did hold the ECT view)

Look at this website, which explains Conditional Immortality.
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/welcome

You need to learn more about Conditional Immortality if you think that only deluded Christians from Shepherd's Chapel believe in it.
There is only eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord, and NOWHERE ELSE. There is no eternal life in hell, so how could people possibly have eternal life in hell being tortured alive for all eternity? The Bible says that we either have eternal life or we will perish. Read John 3:16 and give me your thoughts on it. Does it spell out Conditional Immortality perfectly or does it say "Whoever believes in him shall not be tormented alive forever in hell but instead will go go to heaven when they die"? John 3:16 simply doesn't say that, and it would HAVE to in order for Eternal Conscious Tormentism to be correct.

Take a look at the website, every objection that Traditionalists have are answered Biblically. Find out more about Conditional Immortality.
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/welcome
 
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