Militarized Police

IMJerusha

New member
Maybe not stupid, but undeniably ignorant. Your comment before on police not being responsible for the law shows a failure in ethics and history. Remember Nuremberg?

There's nothing wrong with my ethics. People as a whole are responsible for the laws, both good and bad, of this country. Police Officers don't make the laws. They are responsible, however, for upholding them. The court system is responsible for implementing them.

Not to mention, even legally, the cops have options. They can choose to take on productive careers rather than being cops.

I have news for you; being a Police Officer is a calling and an extremely productive career.

What is permissive parenting, and what does this have to do with anything?

Permissive parenting leads to adults who have little regard for rules or boundaries. That would be you.

Nevermind that there are too many laws to keep track of, some contradict each other, and most contradict the Constitution. And almost all contradict the very basic moral axiom of "Don't swing your fist at your neighbor's face" (otherwise known as "Proverbs 3:30.")

I'm not trying to put it lightly when I say this, but you have traded your allegiance to Christ for your allegiance to Caesar, and I am calling on you to repent.
Now, to be clear, I am not saying you aren't a Christian (that's not my job to judge.) What I am saying is that you are refusing to apply Biblical principles to police, and in doing so you have put Caesar above God.

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." 1 John 3:4 I have not put Caesar above God because I choose to be obedient to God and obey the law of the land in which I live.

Jesus tells you to love your neighbor as yourself, and to do unto others what you would have them do unto you. Say you're a cop, and the law tells you to bust someone for smoking a joint, or to pull someone over for speeding. What would you want someone else to do unto you? Do you want someone to aggressively threaten you because of peaceful actions you choose to engage in? The Bible is telling you not to enforce those laws, and yet government is telling you to do so, who are you going to obey?

Smoking pot is illegal. Speeding is illegal. Beyond that these two things endanger not only ourselves but others. You're a modern day hippie trying to use the faith of Yeshua to justify sinful wants and desires...lawlessness.

Frankly, I think its a shame....

Yeah, I think your abuse of the faith of Yeshua is a shame also.
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
I'm not sure I understand.

First we have to make sure we're on the same page, or at least a similar one, with regards to what actions are good and what actions are bad. If you actually agree with most or all gun control laws, drug laws, speeding laws, tax laws, and so forth... basically, if your philosophy is that people should be preemptively regulated because of what they might do in the future or because they might harm themselves, we're unlikely to get anywhere. If that's the case, I would like you to say so now so we can change gears and just debate whether that's a good idea.

Okay, I'll give you my general view regarding such ...then we'll see where this goes.

I'm not a flaming liberal though, as my ToL profile indicates, my position's a tad left of center on the subjects you touched upon. For instance I believe that under the premise of consumer, employee and environmental safety and protection American business should be regulated. That being said, I've no problem with conservative watch-dog groups lobbying to keep business regulation to a (reasonable) minimum. I'm content with our current "mixed-economy" structure of capitalism as the conservative/liberal ebb and flow tend to keep controversial issues on a (more/less) even keel. I've little knowledge regarding anarcho-capitalism specifically though I'm certainly not a fan of laissez faire policies.

Regarding laws on drugs, traffic, taxes...etc. I believe they're important in maintaining a relative peaceful and productive society...Though I'll admit to some exceptions, abuses and pandering to corporate America.

Anything else?
 

journey

New member
Some of the people in this thread don't have a clue about what law enforcement officers do and accomplish. It would take a real dork-doodle to come up with some of the ideas I've seen expressed in this thread. To say that they're NAIVE is a gross understatement. We certainly have a lot of problems in this country, but we still have one of the best criminal justice systems in the world.

Being a law enforcement officer, including Christians, is an honorable career. Being an arm-chair anarchist isn't an honorable career. Effective law enforcement leads to safety, security, and quality of life in our society.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
There's nothing wrong with my ethics. People as a whole are responsible for the laws, both good and bad, of this country. Police Officers don't make the laws. They are responsible, however, for upholding them. The court system is responsible for implementing them.

And a Nazi Stormtrooper could have said the same thing.

People are responsible for what they do. If people vote for bad laws or politicians, they are responsible for that. If a cop chooses to take on a job that requires him to enforce bad laws, he is responsible for that.



I have news for you; being a Police Officer is a calling and an extremely productive career.

Being a cop requires you to steal from and kidnap productive people. Its a disgusting career.


Permissive parenting leads to adults who have little regard for rules or boundaries. That would be you.

There are rules and then there are rules. I don't think that just because some idiot in Washington DC wrote something on a piece of paper that that gives anyone the moral right to use violence against those who do otherwise.

Also, you have no idea how I was parented, so trying to comment on that just makes you an idiot.


"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." 1 John 3:4 I have not put Caesar above God because I choose to be obedient to God and obey the law of the land in which I live.

I don't think this is talking about any and all laws that politicians make up, I think its clearly talking about the law of God. That said, my issue with you isn't that you obey the law (I typically do as well.) My issue with you is that you defend violence in the name of law even when the law in question is against a so-called crime which lacks a victim.

Smoking pot is illegal. Speeding is illegal. Beyond that these two things endanger not only ourselves but others. You're a modern day hippie trying to use the faith of Yeshua to justify sinful wants and desires...lawlessness.


Ready for a shocker?

I don't smoke pot. And I don't speed.

I'm guessing you speed. Most people do. Which would make you a hypocrite. It does not, however, mean that you are a dangerous person, and I think you know it to. Yet you defend what is essentially a revenue generation scam masquerading as "keeping us safe."

Yeah, I think your abuse of the faith of Yeshua is a shame also.

I want nothing to do with the Caesar-worshipping "Christianity" of the neocon right. Nor do I want anything to do with the "hippie Christianity" of the left that is accepting of all kinds of "alternative lifestyles." My allegiance is to Christ alone, and I live peacefully with my neighbors. You do not, instead, you whine to government and ask them to use violence on your behalf. You should be ashamed.

You consider Police Officers gang members. How is that conducive to a rational, respectful discussion?

I don't care if the person in question is respectful. I'll be quite honest with you, I don't have one whit of respect for you or anyone who takes the position that you do. I see no need to respect someone who is perfectly happy with hiring people to point guns at people who don't comply with their whims that they ask politicians to write into law on their behalf.

I do, however, care about rationality. And I haven't seen much of it in this thread. You can disrespect me all you want to if you have a logical argument. But, you don't.

Okay, I'll give you my general view regarding such ...then we'll see where this goes.

I'm not a flaming liberal though, as my ToL profile indicates, my position's a tad left of center on the subjects you touched upon.

I dislike "right" and "left" as terms typically and I usually only use them to mock those who self-identify as such. I recognize that both terms mean lots of different things. So don't worry, I didn't automatically prejudge you as a liberal.
For instance I believe that under the premise of consumer, employee and environmental safety and protection American business should be regulated. That being said, I've no problem with conservative watch-dog groups lobbying to keep business regulation to a (reasonable) minimum. I'm content with our current "mixed-economy" structure of capitalism as the conservative/liberal ebb and flow tend to keep controversial issues on a (more/less) even keel. I've little knowledge regarding anarcho-capitalism specifically though I'm certainly not a fan of laissez faire policies.

Regarding laws on drugs, traffic, taxes...etc. I believe they're important in maintaining a relative peaceful and productive society...Though I'll admit to some exceptions, abuses and pandering to corporate America.

Anything else?

OK, so we're ideologically very different. Let's start at the beginning, laissez faire, since ultimately that's the root of everything else.

There is a difference between capitalism and capitalism.

What anarcho-capitalists advocate is pure laissez faire capitalism, no government handouts to anyone, whether poor or rich. Note that that doesn't mean we want anyone to starve, only that we believe contributions should be made voluntarily and not via government force.

The Republican version of the "free market" is defense contractors competing with each other to see who can produce materials of war for the government with maximum efficiency, to see who can inflate the currency, and to deal with unemployment by hiring tons of people to work for the government as various types of cops (TSA, regular cops, NSA analysts, etc.) Now, I'm kind of joking here because I know nobody actually says these things are to help with unemployment. But the point is that Republicans rightly criticize people who don't want to work and collect welfare instead, yet they don't see a problem with someone choosing to make their living by controlling other people's lives.

With that being said, I believe that it is immoral to use aggressive force against your neighbor, period. And I believe its immoral even if you're a government agent. Just apply that to its logical conclusion and anarcho-capitalism falls into place.

Some of the people in this thread don't have a clue about what law enforcement officers do and accomplish. It would take a real dork-doodle to come up with some of the ideas I've seen expressed in this thread. To say that they're NAIVE is a gross understatement. We certainly have a lot of problems in this country, but we still have one of the best criminal justice systems in the world.

Being a law enforcement officer, including Christians, is an honorable career. Being an arm-chair anarchist isn't an honorable career. Effective law enforcement leads to safety, security, and quality of life in our society.
:rolleyes:

You're an idiot.
 

IMJerusha

New member
And a Nazi Stormtrooper could have said the same thing.

But I am not a Nazi nor would I compare their lawless ways to the ways of anyone who loves God and Yeshua which I do. I don't suppose you meant that to be a dig based on my affiliation with Messianic Judaism? You've learned well. Sadly, the problem is what you've learned.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Some of the people in this thread don't have a clue about what law enforcement officers do and accomplish. It would take a real dork-doodle to come up with some of the ideas I've seen expressed in this thread. To say that they're NAIVE is a gross understatement. We certainly have a lot of problems in this country, but we still have one of the best criminal justice systems in the world.

Being a law enforcement officer, including Christians, is an honorable career. Being an arm-chair anarchist isn't an honorable career. Effective law enforcement leads to safety, security, and quality of life in our society.

Exactly ...
 

journey

New member
One particular poster stands out as a dork-doodle, and I think that we all know who that is. He or she is trying to pose as an intellectual. This person is too NAIVE for the attempt.
 

resurrected

BANNED
Banned
Some of the people in this thread don't have a clue about what law enforcement officers do and accomplish. It would take a real dork-doodle to come up with some of the ideas I've seen expressed in this thread. To say that they're NAIVE is a gross understatement.

if you're talking about cl, he's just a dopey kid


it's embarrassing to watch him spew forth the silly crap that he does - i see glimpses of my own dopey nineteen year old self :(
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
But I am not a Nazi nor would I compare their lawless ways to the ways of anyone who loves God and Yeshua which I do. I don't suppose you meant that to be a dig based on my affiliation with Messianic Judaism? You've learned well. Sadly, the problem is what you've learned.

No, I wasn't calling you a Nazi, nor was I even considering the fact that you are a Messianic Jew. I'm sorry that you took my post as an attack on Jews, it was not.

My point was an allusion to Nuremberg. The Germans who engaged in the Holocaust excused their actions by the fact that they were "just following orders". I'm sure some of the German soldiers and cops even meant well, and were decent people in their personal lives (ie. when they weren't wearing their Nazi uniforms.) But ultimately, it wasn't considered a valid excuse, and I would say rightly not. They were punished, and many of them executed, for things that they did that were completely legal according to German laws.'

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying American cops are morally equivalent to the Nazis, what I'm saying is that similar PRINCIPLES apply. Namely, that the "I'm just following orders" line is frequently used by right-wing cops (and right-wing cop supporters) who know our government is too big and out of control and yet choose to take on a career of enforcing the government's laws.

And frankly, the sad part is that that isn't why most cops join. They join because they want to keep us safe, not because they want to enforce thousands of technical fouls and reduce our liberties. But ultimately, well meaning people get used for the purpose of taking away our liberties, and they rationalize it with lines like "just following orders." And so it gets gradually worse, until we end up with a Nazi German type situation.

Again, I apologize if you think I was attacking you personally for your faith. I have no problem with Messianic Jews, or Jewish people in general. My point really was the allusion to Nuremberg. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Wait until you hear one of his anti military rants.

Yeah, the military isn't protecting anyone's freedom either. I wish it was but it isn't.
 

IMJerusha

New member
No, I wasn't calling you a Nazi, nor was I even considering the fact that you are a Messianic Jew. I'm sorry that you took my post as an attack on Jews, it was not.

Your posts are extremely aggressive to the detriment of your witness. It's difficult, at times, to determine how you mean something.

My point was an allusion to Nuremberg. The Germans who engaged in the Holocaust excused their actions by the fact that they were "just following orders". I'm sure some of the German soldiers and cops even meant well, and were decent people in their personal lives (ie. when they weren't wearing their Nazi uniforms.) But ultimately, it wasn't considered a valid excuse, and I would say rightly not. They were punished, and many of them executed, for things that they did that were completely legal according to German laws.'

It's not the same thing at all. Consider the Law Enforcement Officer's Oath:
"On my honor,
I will never betray my badge,
my integrity, my character,
or the public trust.
I will always have
the courage to hold myself
and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution
my community and the agency I serve."

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying American cops are morally equivalent to the Nazis, what I'm saying is that similar PRINCIPLES apply. Namely, that the "I'm just following orders" line is frequently used by right-wing cops (and right-wing cop supporters) who know our government is too big and out of control and yet choose to take on a career of enforcing the government's laws.

And frankly, the sad part is that that isn't why most cops join. They join because they want to keep us safe, not because they want to enforce thousands of technical fouls and reduce our liberties. But ultimately, well meaning people get used for the purpose of taking away our liberties, and they rationalize it with lines like "just following orders." And so it gets gradually worse, until we end up with a Nazi German type situation.

When a Police Officer takes a bullet for you, a complete stranger, or steps in the path of an oncoming fist so you, a complete stranger, don't take it in the face, or prevents your property from being stolen or struggles with an HIV positive rapist at the risk of his own health for you, a complete stranger, you can tell me all about how awful it was that he was "just following orders."
In the year 2014 so far across this nation, over 39 Police Officers have died defending the public -- 63 Officers total if you include the on duty moving vehicle accidents and heart attacks and you have the audacity to proclaim their sacrifice in keeping with Nazi German principles while you benefit from their presence in your life.

Again, I apologize if you think I was attacking you personally for your faith. I have no problem with Messianic Jews, or Jewish people in general. My point really was the allusion to Nuremberg. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Perhaps you should not have gone there at all considering the complete lack of similarity. Pick up your phone and dial 911 when you need Police protection and pray that terrorists never gain access to the building where you work.
http://www.odmp.org/search/incident/september-11-terrorist-attack

Yeah, the military isn't protecting anyone's freedom either. I wish it was but it isn't.

No, of course not. :rolleyes: How nice that you have the ability to speak your mind courtesy of the men and women of the United States, British, French etc. military who fought and died. Now who's ignoring history?

My son's school went into practice lockdown at a time when food supplies were being delivered by of all things, the local military unit. The school had apparently run short so the nearby military base shared. The soldiers didn't know about the practice lockdown and when they heard the alert, they corralled every student they could, took up positions and hunkered down with drawn weapons ready to defend those students with their own lives. It was a lesson my son will never forget. I wish you'd been there but you probably would have found something to complain about. John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."
 
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Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Your posts are extremely aggressive to the detriment of your witness. It's difficult, at times, to determine how you mean something.

I understand. Hence why I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Now, I suspect you still won't like what I have to say. Which is fine with me. I don't care about being liked or respected. I just don't want you to dislike or disrespect me for the wrong reasons (ie. because you thought I was attacking your faith.)



It's not the same thing at all. Consider the Law Enforcement Officer's Oath:
"On my honor,
I will never betray my badge,
my integrity, my character,
or the public trust.
I will always have
the courage to hold myself
and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution
my community and the agency I serve."

Yes, but they don't actually do this.

When a Police Officer takes a bullet for you, a complete stranger, or steps in the path of an oncoming fist so you, a complete stranger, don't take it in the face, or prevents your property from being stolen or struggles with an HIV positive rapist at the risk of his own health for you, a complete stranger, you can tell me all about how awful it was that he was "just following orders."

This is a fantasy that virtually never happens. When seconds count the police are minutes away. Now, I understand that this isn't the fault of the cops, but the reality is that cops are not even able to protect you. You have to be able to protect yourself.

That said, common sense would tell you that I am not saying that EVERYTHING that cops do is bad. Just that a lot of it is. Christianity is not utilitarian, and a good action does not "make up for" a bad one.

In the year 2014 so far across this nation, over 39 Police Officers have died defending the public --

Incidentally, this is not in the top 10 when it comes to professions with highest casualty counts. Surprisingly, farmers are first. I do wonder how many of those people were actually "defending the public" rather than enforcing unjust laws, but that's another issue.

63 Officers total if you include the on duty moving vehicle accidents and heart attacks and you have the audacity to proclaim their sacrifice in keeping with Nazi German principles while you benefit from their presence in your life.

No, I don't.

My family has been robbed one time by a non-cop. The police did not arrest the person responsible.

Most of us are robbed multiple times by police (under the cover of law.)
Perhaps you should not have gone there at all considering the complete lack of similarity. Pick up your phone and dial 911 when you need Police protection and pray that terrorists never gain access to the building where you work.
http://www.odmp.org/search/incident/september-11-terrorist-attack

I don't see what 9/11 has to do with anything. There is a similarity because your position is essentially "the law is the law" rather than actually holding cops responsible when they enforce bad laws.

Incidentally, a blogger I appreciate (though he is secular) makes a similar point in one of his articles from today, read this:

http://ericpetersautos.com/2014/07/23/positive-law/


No, of course not. :rolleyes: How nice that you have the ability to speak your mind courtesy of the men and women of the United States, British, French etc. military who fought and died. Now who's ignoring history?

My son's school went into practice lockdown at a time when food supplies were being delivered by of all things, the local military unit. The school had apparently run short so the nearby military base shared. The soldiers didn't know about the practice lockdown and when they heard the alert, they corralled every student they could, took up positions and hunkered down with drawn weapons ready to defend those students with their own lives. It was a lesson my son will never forget. I wish you'd been there but you probably would have found something to complain about. John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."

Good for those people. No really, I mean it. I'm sincere. Good for them.

That doesn't change the fact that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, and the Persian Gulf were in no way "protecting our freedoms", and that nobody was threatening our freedoms during those conflicts. Those conflicts did, however, give the US government an excuse to expand government control over our lives.

World War II is a somewhat more complicated topic, seeing as there actually was an expansionist foe who certainly wanted to take over Europe at the very least. Even still, all sides of that war murdered millions of civilians, and Hitler could never have gotten to the US, he was having a hard enough time with Stalin.
 

IMJerusha

New member
I understand. Hence why I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Now, I suspect you still won't like what I have to say. Which is fine with me. I don't care about being liked or respected. I just don't want you to dislike or disrespect me for the wrong reasons (ie. because you thought I was attacking your faith.)

And I accepted your apology. You were not attacking my faith. You are attacking THE faith. No matter the knowledge you amass over time, if you do not change your attitude to align with Scripture both in your dealings with the Body as well as your political and social views, you will be a very unhappy soul. I Corinthians 13 and Romans 13.

Yes, but they don't actually do this.

Yes, they do actually do this.

This is a fantasy that virtually never happens. When seconds count the police are minutes away. Now, I understand that this isn't the fault of the cops, but the reality is that cops are not even able to protect you. You have to be able to protect yourself.

This happens (virtually) more often than you know. Yes, we must be able to protect ourselves (within the law) but I can testify that many, including myself have been saved by the fast response and dedicated action of Police Officers. The internet is full of examples. Educate yourself.

That said, common sense would tell you that I am not saying that EVERYTHING that cops do is bad.

How magnanimous of you!

Just that a lot of it is.

Much more good than bad.

Christianity is not utilitarian, and a good action does not "make up for" a bad one.

Not all Police Officers are Christians.

Incidentally, this is not in the top 10 when it comes to professions with highest casualty counts. Surprisingly, farmers are first.

Immaterial.

I do wonder how many of those people were actually "defending the public" rather than enforcing unjust laws, but that's another issue.

http://www.odmp.org/search/year Read up. Be sure and critique each and every death to your satisfaction. When and if you hit the age of 42, remember you made it one year beyond the average age of these officers! You just insulted the families of 26 officers killed by gunfire, 1 in a fire, 1 by physical assault, 6 by vehicular assault, and 2 in pursuit of a perp. The balance of the 63 died getting to or from their jobs, just sitting in their squads or from heart attacks but their service was/is no less important or appreciated. I have two flags sitting in my living room, one from the coffin of a Police Officer and one from the coffin of an Army MP. You are more than welcome to take your wondering and stuff it.

No, I don't.

Yes, you do. This "discussion" is over at least for me. You have benefited from my tolerance long enough and wisdom demands I withdraw before I embarrass Yeshua further than I already have. You carry on to your heart's content.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
And I accepted your apology. You were not attacking my faith. You are attacking THE faith. No matter the knowledge you amass over time, if you do not change your attitude to align with Scripture both in your dealings with the Body as well as your political and social views, you will be a very unhappy soul. I Corinthians 13 and Romans 13.

Keep in mind that Romans chapter 13 was written while Christians were being persecuted by Rome, and in a time where every Christian knew that the Roman government and its tax collectors were evil.

As for 1 Corinthians 13, how can you love someone while you're holding him at gunpoint despite the fact that he has never used violence against anyone else?

I understand that you are emotionally wrapped up in this topic, and so facts and logic will not convince you. You have chosen to align yourself with the "law and order" crowd, rather than with liberty. Its really a shame, actually.

And yes, I have absolutely no problem saying that a cop who is killed while enforcing a law against a victimless crime was the aggressor in the encounter and that the person who protected himself was not unjustified. That doesn't mean I like it, I feel bad for cops who actually believe what they are doing is good, but that doesn't change the actual logic of the situation.
 

IMJerusha

New member
Keep in mind that Romans chapter 13 was written while Christians were being persecuted by Rome, and in a time where every Christian knew that the Roman government and its tax collectors were evil.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Maybe you should keep that in mind.

As for 1 Corinthians 13, how can you love someone while you're holding him at gunpoint despite the fact that he has never used violence against anyone else?

But if that man had pulled a gun from under his sweater after he had turned his back to the Officers and shot one of the Officers who had just spent hours trying to get him to surrender, that would have escaped your Liberaltarian notice. Want some logic? Logic dictates that if the likes of you were to walk a mile in a Policeman's shoes, you'd be spending the rest of the day cleaning your pants!...if you survived.

I understand that you are emotionally wrapped up in this topic, and so facts and logic will not convince you. You have chosen to align yourself with the "law and order" crowd, rather than with liberty. Its really a shame, actually.

It's normal for a woman to get emotional in the face of her loved ones murder. What isn't normal is for you, a Christian man, is to tuck your rationale behind that emotionalism with a smug smile while you tout your so-called logic.

UNSUBSCRIBING
 
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Christian Liberty

Well-known member
2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Maybe you should keep that in mind.

I agree. My point was that the verses cannot mean what you think they mean.


But if that man had pulled a gun from under his sweater after he had turned his back to the Officers and shot one of the Officers who had just spent hours trying to get him to surrender, that would have escaped your Liberaltarian notice. Want some logic? Logic dictates that if the likes of you were to walk a mile in a Policeman's shoes, you'd be spending the rest of the day cleaning your pants!...if you survived.

This is just an absurd comment that shows you haven't been listening.
 

Christ's Word

New member
And the hits just keep on coming.....

http://www.infowars.com/the-absurd-bureaucratic-hell-that-is-the-american-police-state/


"In Georgia, a toddler had his face severely burned when a flash bang grenade, launched by a SWAT team during the course of a no-knock warrant, landed in his portable crib, detonating on his pillow. Also in Georgia, a police officer shot and killed a 17-year-old boy who answered the door, reportedly with a Nintendo Wii controller in his hands. The cop claimed the teenager pointed a gun at her, thereby justifying the use of deadly force. Then there was the incident wherein a police officer, responding to a complaint that some children were “chopping off tree limbs” creating “tripping hazards,”pulled a gun on a group of 11-year-old boys who were playing in a wooded area, attempting to build a tree fort."
 
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