Theology Club: John Nelson Darby

Jerry Shugart

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If you believe in covenants you must also believe in dispensations, the covenants differ in the way God has dispensed them to different people.

The covenants are not different because of the way that God dispenses them to different people bit instead they are different because the of terms found within the covenants themselves. For instance, let us look at the terms o the "Covenant of the Law":

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Ex.19:5-6).​

In order for the children of Israel to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation they were to keep the law.

That is what made it different from the other covenants and not the way it was dispensed, as you seem to think.
 

Totton Linnet

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The covenants are not different because of the way that God dispenses them to different people bit instead they are different because the of terms found within the covenants themselves. For instance, let us look at the terms o the "Covenant of the Law":

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Ex.19:5-6).​

In order for the children of Israel to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation they were to keep the law.

That is what made it different from the other covenants and not the way it was dispensed, as you seem to think.

It was dispensed through the priesthood and through ordinances...now God's grace is dispensed through Christ by the preaching of the gospel...that is different.
 

Jerry Shugart

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It was dispensed through the priesthood and through ordinances...

No, it was Moses who gave the terms of the Law to the children of Israel so he was the one who dispensed it.

now God's grace is dispensed through Christ by the preaching of the gospel...that is different.

No, it is Paul who was given the dispensation of the gospel to dispense the gospel:

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

Here he speaks of dispensing the gospel:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).​

You are so confused that you do not even understand the most basic things about the Biblical dispensations. And to make it worse you prove that you are unable to learn anything about this subject.

I am done with you and this thread.
 

Totton Linnet

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Oh dear oh dear oh dear you can be so wearisome Jerry.

Moses was given the dispensation...of the law...the law was the dispensation.
Paul was given the dispensation of the gospel...the gospel is the dispensation.

The dispensation is God's righteousness dispensed by these means.

If you give Paul the dispensation to drive a bus he doesn't become a bus, he is the driver of it. The dispensation is a means of transport, delivered by Paul who is the dispenser of it.

If the means of transport is changed to a pair of wings then the dispensation has changed.

What was once dispensed by the obedience to the law i.e. righteousness is now dispensed by faith in the gospel...it is a different dispensation.

Paul is a steward [dispenser] of God's grace...grace is the dispensation.
 

intojoy

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If all of the prophecies concerning Israel's rejection of Messiah were literally fulfilled, as well as a literal fulfilling if the first coming prophecies, what makes you abandon the literal hermeneutic concerning the Time of Jacob's Trouble? Is there not an abundance of OT scriptures that speak about the Tribulation?

You take literally what you have to and abandon literal prophecies about

The Day of The Lord
Time of Jacob's Trouble
Etc etc
 

Totton Linnet

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If all of the prophecies concerning Israel's rejection of Messiah were literally fulfilled, as well as a literal fulfilling if the first coming prophecies, what makes you abandon the literal hermeneutic concerning the Time of Jacob's Trouble? Is there not an abundance of OT scriptures that speak about the Tribulation?

You take literally what you have to and abandon literal prophecies about

The Day of The Lord
Time of Jacob's Trouble
Etc etc

Do you want to put aside your vid of Fruchtenbaum and go read what God said about the time of Jacob's trouble?

It is only spoken of in Jeremiah 30 as Jacob's trouble. Let me read it to you.

These are the words which the Lord spake concerning Israel and Judah.

thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic
of terror and no peace

BUT God says

Ask and see now can a man bear a child?

Why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour?
WHY? has every face turned pale?

Alas that day is so great there is none like it, it is a time of distress for Jacob

YET

HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT.

Read it in Jeremiah 30

God is going to break the yoke off his neck and strangers will no more make servants of them but they shall serve David their King.

God goes on.

Then FEAR NOT O Jacob My servant says the Lord NOR BE DISMAYED O Israel for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of their captivity

Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and NONE shall make him afraid. for I am with you says the Lord.

I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you but of YOU I will not make a full end.

I will punish you in just measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
 

Totton Linnet

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You will read it in Daniel 12 also

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince of your people.

And there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since ther was a nation till that time.

BUT

at that time your people will be delivered everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
 

Totton Linnet

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Day of The Lord ...

Expand, I know what Darby taught and I believe Fruchtenbaum follows Darby in part at least. Everyone who believes in the pre-tribulation rapture will inevitably trace their belief back to Darby...he is the modern day father of it.

Very few theologians believed it down the centuries.

Darby interpreted "that day" in 2. Thess. as the day of the Lord.

But Paul says concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to meet him...THAT day will not come etc.
See what Darby makes Paul to say...for Darby very craftily changed the word rebellion to mean departure, as in departure of the church.

Here is what Darby makes Paul to say.

"Concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless a rapture has come first." It makes no sense.
 
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intojoy

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You have a decent concept of Israel past and future but you have zero in terms of Israel - Present

For example who are the Remnant of Israel and where have they been since the first century?

Where are they now and what are their doctrines?

How are they substantiating their beliefs in either the Torah observant form of Messianic Judaism vs the non observant Messianic Jews?

Non observant meaning not obligatory.

Who if any of the Remnant have you studied so as to compare doctrines ?

Since God only chooses Jews to write scripture and will choose 122000 Jews and two future Jewish men as the Two Witnesses, why have you overlooked Fruchtenbaum and assumed he cc'd Darby?

Frucht's doctrinal thesis from NYU became the published 1200 page "Israelology the Missing Link in Systematic Theology".

Read and learn, do not ignore
 

Totton Linnet

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You have a decent concept of Israel past and future but you have zero in terms of Israel - Present

For example who are the Remnant of Israel and where have they been since the first century?

Where are they now and what are their doctrines?

How are they substantiating their beliefs in either the Torah observant form of Messianic Judaism vs the non observant Messianic Jews?

Non observant meaning not obligatory.

Who if any of the Remnant have you studied so as to compare doctrines ?

Since God only chooses Jews to write scripture and will choose 122000 Jews and two future Jewish men as the Two Witnesses, why have you overlooked Fruchtenbaum and assumed he cc'd Darby?

Frucht's doctrinal thesis from NYU became the published 1200 page "Israelology the Missing Link in Systematic Theology".

Read and learn, do not ignore

IJ I can only go by what is written, I cain't go by what is not written.

I cain't go by what may seem to be written between the lines.

The scripture seem to say quite categorically that at this time there is no Jewish church.

I would remind you that Luke was Greek.

Paul was Jewish, to study Paul for this present dispensation is entirely sufficient. To understand Paul's doctrines is all the equipment we need.
 

Totton Linnet

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Partakers
Not
Overtakers

I do not believe in replacement theology. When we say partakers of the Jewish promise, their commonwealth, we are speaking about the coming kingdom.

...the powers of the age to come.

The problem I see is that the church does not pay sufficient attention to Paul.

That

We [Gentiles] are no longer aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, no longer strangers from the covenants of promise, we are no longer without hope, without God in the world.

We are now fellow citizens ...built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

The church very early on became anti Jewish and it was a catastrophe. It cut the church off from all the covenants of promise in the OT. so that when the Psalmist says

Bless the Lord oh my soul and forget not all His benefits
who forgiveth all thine iniquities
who healeth all thine diseases
who satisfieth thy mouth with good things.

They say "oh these are the earthly promises God made to the Jews."

Yes they are, yessir.

But through Christ [apart from the law and ordinances] WE are made partakers...they are ours.
 
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