Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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Elia

Well-known member
That is right.

Jesus is God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

There are three, and the three are One and the same.

Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when Christ prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; Christ is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven Christ is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When Christ was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs'd

We are not allowed to worship a man:

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.


Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Jesus is God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Bs'd

Are you your own father? And at the same time your own son? Because that is what people claim about the Christian God.

The Christians or anyone else who buys into the trinity are in deep error.

They cannot think well.

The trinity does not fit scripture whatsoever.

It is sad to see maybe otherwise good people fall for such nonsense
 

God's Truth

New member
The Christians or anyone else who buys into the trinity are in deep error.

They cannot think well.

The trinity does not fit scripture whatsoever.

It is sad to see maybe otherwise good people fall for such nonsense

The trinity doctrine is false.

There are three, and the three are One and the same.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Really?

Maybe you oughta put that dumb lookin' hat back on.

Then we can all see who I'm addressing.
Aw, standard banter again, nothing on point (do you even remember what this thread is about? ▲see the OP title▲)
That sure proved your point, didn't it?

:doh:

:think:

(seriously --> :think: banter isn't my thing and I don't enjoy it)
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
The trinity doctrine is false.

There are three, and the three are One and the same.

There is only one God, and that is the Father also known by many other names and titles, including the Holy Spirit.

And He chose to have a human son, the son of God, who freely and willfully chose to do what it took to rescue his fellow men from the darkness and evil they put upon themselves.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There is only one God, and that is the Father also known by many other names and titles, including the Holy Spirit.

And He chose to have a human son, the son of God, who freely and willfully chose to do what it took to rescue his fellow men from the darkness and evil they put upon themselves.

The father is the Holy Spirit? You sound like God's Truth.
 

God's Truth

New member
There is only one God, and that is the Father also known by many other names and titles, including the Holy Spirit.
Right, there is only ONE GOD AND HE IS THE FATHER. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

And He chose to have a human son, the son of God, who freely and willfully chose to do what it took to rescue his fellow men from the darkness and evil they put upon themselves.
Jesus’ Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God in the flesh.
 

Pierac

New member

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.


Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Jesus is God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

:doh:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah.

In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."

Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself. Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever (Age).

:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 

God's Truth

New member
God has life inherent whether he is in the flesh or in the Spirit. This means God can't die.

Since the man Jesus died he obviously is not God, but God did raise him from the dead.

We all die in the flesh. We all have a spirit. The spirit does not die.
 

God's Truth

New member
:doh:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah.

In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."

Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself. Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

:poly::sherlock:
Paul

God did not pretend to be a Man; He actually came as a Man.

Since you do not accept Isaiah 9:6, maybe you will accept these scriptures.

In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation!

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?
 

Elia

Well-known member

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.




Bs'd

"Almah" = girl, young woman.

Married or not.

The almah in Isaiah 7:14 was obviously married, since she was pregnant and giving birth to a son.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91870

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75324

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

Jesus is God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that Christ was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that Christ was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says Christ is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when Christ prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven Christ is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When Christ was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that Christ was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship Christ are idol worshipers.

For more information why Christ was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs'd

"Almah" = girl, young woman.

Married or not.

The almah in Isaiah 7:14 was obviously married, since she was pregnant and giving birth to a son.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91870

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75324



Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.



The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that Christ was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that Christ was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says Christ is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when Christ prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven Christ is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When Christ was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that Christ was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship Christ are idol worshipers.

For more information why Christ was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com

All the Prophets testifies about Jesus.

The whole Old Testament is about Jesus.

You speak from ignorance and hate.

I will tell you what Jesus says that you need to do to know the truth.

If anyone does what Jesus says to do, he or she will find out if Jesus is telling the truth or not.

See John 7:17.

If you want to know what you are talking about, first do what Jesus says, and then come back and discuss.

Elia is a sad case speaking as if he is someone knowledgeable. Go get some knowledge, and then come back and tell us what you think. Go spend some time with the teachings of Jesus, and then come back and speak.
 

Pierac

New member
God did not pretend to be a Man; He actually came as a Man.

Since you do not accept Isaiah 9:6, maybe you will accept these scriptures.

In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation!

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?

In Revelation 1: 8 God (he who sits on the throne) calls himself "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending... the Almighty. Then in Revelation 1: 11, Messiah calls himself "Alpha and Omega," the beginning and the end. Was he identifying himself as "he who sits on the throne?"

KJV Revelation 1: 11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, and, what you see write in a book, and send it to the seven congregations which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphea, and to Laodicea."

That it is Messiah here talking in Rev. 1: 11 there can be no doubt for in verse 17 he repeats, "I am the first and the last," and then in verse 18 he says "I am he that lives, and was dead:" So, we know of a certainty that Messiah called himself Alpha and Omega, and the first and the last, but he did not call himself "the beginning and the end" here. However in Revelation 3: 14 Messiah calls himself the "beginning of the creation of God," then in Revelation 22: 13 he calls himself the "beginning and the end."

Then people that say Messiah is God put forth the notion that when Messiah called himself "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end," he was calling himself God, since God called himself by the same titles in Revelation 1: 8. You have to love their persistence, but I'm about to show you how this cannot be true, because Revelation clearly distinguishes between "he who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb of God." First, lets discuss how God and Messiah could both be called by these same titles, and how, just because they both have the same title, it doesn't mean they are the same person.

To understand what Alpha and Omega and first and last mean, we need only understand that God is doing a work in the earth. He started it on day one of creation, and He's going to finish it. Of course God is the Alpha and Omega of his work, the beginning and the ending, but what about Messiah? How is he the beginning and the ending of God's work on the earth? Well, if you have to ask that you haven't been paying attention, and you have never read your Bible! Messiah IS God's work on the earth, and the culmination of His plan from the very beginning to the very ending! Messiah said it when he said in Revelation 3: 14, "the beginning of the creation of God."

How can God be a part of the "creation?" God and Messiah are both "Alpha and Omega," and "beginning and the ending."

We know that God was talking in Revelation 1: 8 when he said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," then he says "he which was, and is, and is to come the Almighty." Also, in Revelation 1: 4 John says "grace be to you and peace from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before HIS THRONE." Thus, John starts out by talking about God almighty, continuing all the way down to verse 11. If any one wants to dispute this, just go get a King James Red Letter Edition. The words of Messiah are all in red, and you will see that verse 1: 8 is not in red. Thus, even the ancient scholars agree it's God talking in verse 1: 8 and not Messiah.

Then, in other places in Revelation, Messiah uses two of those same titles for Himself, "Alpha and Omega," and "the beginning and the ending." So, because Messiah uses two of the titles from verse 1: 8, everyone wants to assume that the other titles apply, too, including "the Almighty."

Just because God and Messiah are both Alpha and Omega and Beginning and Ending, does't mean they are both "the Almighty!" In Revelation Messiah never sits on the throne in Heaven! Revelation chapter 4 describes the throne, and it never mentions Messiah in there. Then in

Revelation 5 it says:
Revelation 5: 1
"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."
The one that opens the book according to verse 5 is "the Lamb of God, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

Revelation 5: 5
"And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof:"
The Lion, my friends, is Messiah! So, is Messiah sitting on the throne? He's already got the book in his hand then, and should open it any minute, right? WRONG!
Revelation 5: 7 "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."
This is the most stark proof that Messiah is not God, otherwise, God is taking the book from himself!

One more thing must be said about the titles "Alpha and Omega, and beginning and ending." These are titles of authority over the Earth. Messiah has been given rulership over the earth even as we speak! When a King hands over his authority on a matter to another, that person becomes the King's authority. Wherever the person who has been given the authority acts in this authority, he acts in the King's stead, and is treated as if the King himself were standing there! Right now, Messiah has been given God's authority over the Earth! (Like when Moses was giving a speech said he was God in Deu 29:6.)

Pay attention here...
1 Corinthians 15: 24- 27
"24 Then comes the end, when he (Messiah) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, until he has put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

The word, excepted, used here is the greek word "ektos" which means "aside from," or "besides," or "other than," or "someone else." It's saying here clearly and with out mistake that God is "excepted" or is "someone other than" Messiah. They aren't the same.

1 Corinthians 15: 28
"28 And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

In light of all the overwhelming evidence, how does anyone say that God and Messiah are the same person? Messiah is right now reigning in God's stead on the Earth, but there comes a day when he delivers the kingdom back up to God, and he himself will be a "subject" of the Lord of Heaven, God Almighty. How can any of this happen if they are the same person? :think:

From the studies of J. Dean
:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 
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