Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
Their worm does not die, so that can only mean it goes on and on.

Do you mean these worms?
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Isaiah 66:24

The worm that eats the dead bodies is not the dead person. The person is dead. I don't know how you can get eternal conscious torment from this.
 

God's Truth

New member
Do you mean these worms?
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Isaiah 66:24

The worm that eats the dead bodies is not the dead person. The person is dead. I don't know how you can get eternal conscious torment from this.

The worms are not dying in the fire, but the people die in the fire?
 

God's Truth

New member
But does it mean it goes on and on with the same body? Decomposition of a body is temporal, but decomposition in general goes on and on. Think of "their" worm as the worm made for decomposition in general. The one for dead bodies. He's simply talking about the grave, not an afterlife of suffering.
Are you saying that the people are going to have to take turns waiting for their time with the worms?

You're not going to let go of this Catholic doctrine, are you?

Do you think it is right that you make up a worm waiting doctrine?
 

everready

New member
No not those everyday ordinary worms these worms that live next to the gates of hell..

A unique organism in these heated areas is the Pompeii worm, first discovered near hydrothermal vents in the Galapagos Islands. These worms are “perhaps the most heat-tolerant complex organisms on Earth,” according to National Geographic article “Earth's Hottest ‘Bods’ May Belong to Worms.” The temperature at the base of the tubes of these worms may be as high as 176 F (80 C).

However, there are also volcanic fissures in the deep Pacific with temperatures up to 752 degrees F (400 C). While nothing living can survive such a temperature, there actually are bacterial organisms living near the vents on these fissures that can survive over 302 F (150 C). This ecosystem is quite unique in that no part of it is dependent upon the sun.

http://www.sciences360.com/index.php/life-forms-found-near-deep-ocean-hydrothermal-vents-2208/

everready
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Jesus returns with the SPIRITS of those who have died.

No scripture says that.


Christ brings with Him, His resurrected saints AFTER they have been raised from the dead at His coming from Heaven to the air and brings them up to Him.



When Jesus returns, he give those spirits a new physical body, a spiritual one; those still alive when he comes, they will be changed to their new bodies, in a twinkling of an eye.

That is spiritism from the RCC and fallen evangelicals.

When people are dead they are dead.


LA
 

Timotheos

New member
The worms are not dying in the fire, but the people die in the fire?

According to Isaiah 66, the people are already dead in the fire. The worms are eating their corpses. The dead people are those who have been slain by the Lord. (and those slain by the LORD shall be many Isaiah 66:16)
According to the Bible, the judgment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life for those who are in Christ.
 

God's Truth

New member
According to Isaiah 66, the people are already dead in the fire. The worms are eating their corpses. The dead people are those who have been slain by the Lord. (and those slain by the LORD shall be many Isaiah 66:16)
According to the Bible, the judgment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life for those who are in Christ.

So then, the worms do not die in the fire?

Remember, the fire is not quenched. It is an everlasting fire.
 

God's Truth

New member
No scripture says that.


Christ brings with Him, His resurrected saints AFTER they have been raised from the dead at His coming from Heaven to the air and brings them up to Him.
I have already explained this to you and gave you scripture. I will give you scripture again since you ask for it

1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.


Zechariah 14:5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

That is spiritism from the RCC and fallen evangelicals.

When people are dead they are dead.


LA

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
 

Krsto

Well-known member
Do you mean these worms?
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Isaiah 66:24

The worm that eats the dead bodies is not the dead person. The person is dead. I don't know how you can get eternal conscious torment from this.

Thanks Timo, I had forgotten about that verse. This verse proves that the worm and the fire refer to the process of decomposition which goes on and on. The picture here is pretty clear and obvious. Isaiah is saying the Israelites will be able to go and see the dead people with their own eyes and see them rotting while on the ground and they will be loathsome to any other men who see them. It obviously is not talking about the afterlife.

Obvious for those who have eyes to see, that is.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
Are you saying that the people are going to have to take turns waiting for their time with the worms?



Do you think it is right that you make up a worm waiting doctrine?

You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. The worm and the fire represent decomposition. In those days they didn't understand biology like we do, yet they could see it happening. The maggots that tend to collect around dead bodies they no doubt thought was what caused the decomposition since they couldn't see the actual bacteria. Given their lack of understanding and coupled with their experience of rotting animal and people corpses it's not too hard to see why they might call it worms and fire.

Get it?
 

Krsto

Well-known member
No not those everyday ordinary worms these worms that live next to the gates of hell..

A unique organism in these heated areas is the Pompeii worm, first discovered near hydrothermal vents in the Galapagos Islands. These worms are “perhaps the most heat-tolerant complex organisms on Earth,” according to National Geographic article “Earth's Hottest ‘Bods’ May Belong to Worms.” The temperature at the base of the tubes of these worms may be as high as 176 F (80 C).

However, there are also volcanic fissures in the deep Pacific with temperatures up to 752 degrees F (400 C). While nothing living can survive such a temperature, there actually are bacterial organisms living near the vents on these fissures that can survive over 302 F (150 C). This ecosystem is quite unique in that no part of it is dependent upon the sun.

http://www.sciences360.com/index.php/life-forms-found-near-deep-ocean-hydrothermal-vents-2208/

everready

That's interesting everready but what are the chances both Jesus and Isaiah are referring to the Pompeii Worm?

BTW, the gates of hell aren't in the ocean or near volcanoes. The gate of hell is just the dirt used to cover up a grave. When Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church he's simply saying the Gospel will get people saved and they will be resurrected out of their graves. If you look up the Old Testament word for hell it's usually Sheol and quite often is translated as "grave" and probably should be in every place it's translated as "hell."
 

God's Truth

New member
You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. The worm and the fire represent decomposition. In those days they didn't understand biology like we do, yet they could see it happening. The maggots that tend to collect around dead bodies they no doubt thought was what caused the decomposition since they couldn't see the actual bacteria. Given their lack of understanding and coupled with their experience of rotting animal and people corpses it's not too hard to see why they might call it worms and fire.

Get it?

I am not putting words in your mouth. Please stop making up things, saying I am doing something I am not.

You do not trust the Bible. I got it.
 

Timotheos

New member
So then, the worms do not die in the fire?

Remember, the fire is not quenched. It is an everlasting fire.

A fire that is not quenched is a fire that has not been put out. The verse doesn't say that it is an everlasting fire.

I would say that the corpse eating worms and the corpse burning fire are two different illustrations of the same principle. In neither of these are the dead bodies conscious.
 

God's Truth

New member
A fire that is not quenched is a fire that has not been put out. The verse doesn't say that it is an everlasting fire.

The scripture does say the fire is eternal.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

I would say that the corpse eating worms and the corpse burning fire are two different illustrations of the same principle. In neither of these are the dead bodies conscious.

Are these dead people conscious?

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
1 Timothy 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
 

rstrats

Active member
God's Truth,

re: "Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

What version/translation is that from?
 

Timotheos

New member
The scripture does say the fire is eternal.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



Are these dead people conscious?

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
1 Timothy 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Do you have any verses that actually say that the lost will burn alive forever in hell when they die? That's really what I am looking for, and would be the only thing that would make me disregard Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

Let me ask you this, Are the dead bodies in Isaiah dead or alive? I think you can figure this one out. Are the DEAD bodies in Isaiah dead or alive. The DEAD bodies. Are they dead or are they alive? Do you need a little hint? Here's a small hint. The DEAD bodies are dead.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
I don't change eternal punishment to eternal conscious torment. The false teachers who believe in eternal conscious torment craftily change eternal punishment into eternal conscious torment.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.

I'm not up to anything shifty, why can't we both be nice to one another?

It was Christ who said they depart into eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels.
 

rstrats

Active member
Totton Linnet,

re: "It was Christ who said they depart into eternal punishment..."


But He didn't say that the punishment was to consist of being tortured for eternity.
 
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