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  1. #16
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    justchristian, I'm very interested in what you have to say, that's why I'm so adamant about getting people to read this stuff, look into it, and then post their opinions. I got sick of Aimiel spouting his vitrolic diatribes, especially after he admitted to me that his opinion is uninformed and demonstrating his lack of interest in anything other than the sound of his own voice, so to speak.

    Yes, please look into this, please respond tomorrow when you have a better grasp, I don't say that condescendingly either, this is something I've learned of only recently myself. I invite you to respond, I welcome you to.

    Thank you very much.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

  2. #17
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    allsmiles,

    Do you know the auther of the webiste you gave? I checked out your "source". I 'm not impressed. He doesn't cite any sources. He makes statements like this:
    Scholars have traced the roots of many of the Old Testament stories to the ancient, pagan myths of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures. In the Fertile Crescent, the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in present-day Iraq, gave birth to some of the worlds first civilizations.
    What scholars is he talking about? How can I examine the work of these scholars if I don't know who they are and what they actually wrote.

    Then he says this:
    Many of the stories in that epic were eventually incorporated into the book of Genesis. Borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh are stories of the creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, and the story of a great flood brought on by the wickedness of man, that flooded the whole world.
    Again he cites no source. He mearly asserts the Genesis "borrowed" from Gilgamesh.

    How can we respond to this "information" if we don't know where it comes from?

    The websites' author is really saying anything that hasn't been said before. I always wonder why some people spent so much time trying to "disprove" the Bible? Don't they have better things to do? So I decided to skim through the author's website.

    I read some of the author's other "writings". BillyBob would say this guy is a He advocates abortion because it lower crime:

    Why did Rowe vs. Wade have such a huge impact on crime in the U.S.? It is simple: Levitt found that single teenage mothers raising children in poverty were frequently undesirous and resentful of their children and did not care for them adequately, or placed them in orphanages where most grew up unloved and unwanted. The child, growing up unwanted and without hope or a sense of acceptance by the world, turned to crime as an easy way to make a living, while getting back at an uncaring world that had rejected him. When Rowe vs. Wade gave teenage pregnant girls an option for not having to raise such children, they took it. The children did not exist to grow into criminals - and the crimes they would have committed did not happen.

    source: http://www.bidstrup.com/
    The author also left the USA because he actually believes the US government was spying on him!! I guess he was been watching to many X-Files epsiodes:

    After the elections of 2000, in which the minority presidential candidate managed to win the election through some very questionable circumstances in Florida, I decided that I should become a bit more active and assertive politically on my web site, and detail what I knew what would be the shenanigans of the new administration. I began by writing up a series of predictions for the new administration on my web site - and it was an instant hit. I was requested by a gay-lesbian magazine in Canada to write a print edition, and did so - it was published in their next edition. And when I took the editorial down from my web site, I began to receive occasional requests for the file. I realized that there was a hunger out there for more information about what the Bush administration was planning, and what it was up to. This led to my creation of the "Dick and Dubya Scandal Chart," which detailed all of the scandals, illegal operations, improper influence, conflicts of interest and other evidences of corruption in the Bush II administration. Within weeks of its publication, I started noticing a few peculiar things beginning to happen.
    First, I received a death threat. It came in on my web page response form, but I have the script set up to record the internet IP address of the computer that sends me a response from that page - and when I checked to find out who the sending internet address was registered to, it proved to be assigned to the government of the State of Minnesota. Since this was an interstate communication involving a government, I forwarded the email on to the Phoenix office of the FBI, along with all the headers. But I never heard back from them, and didn't think anything more about it, since I get a lot of email from out there where the buses don't run. It wasn't until much later that it dawned on me that coming from a government network meant it was likely the first incident in what was to become a pattern.

    Not long after, I noticed that whenever I went away for a few days, I would occasionally come home and find a few things had been moved around in my still-locked house - where I knew I had not left them. And there were occasional trucks parked out on the street, never in front of my house, but usually within two or three doors of my place. I didn't think too much about this, until one of these trucks, a pickup with a topper on the back, ostensibly owned by a roofing contractor, proved to be not what it appeared. I noticed that it was parked in front of a fire hydrant (for three days solid) - and yet the police drove by on at least three occasions that I saw, and never stopped to ticket it. So I went out for a closer look and what I discovered really piqued my interest. The truck had Colorado plates - a big no-no in Arizona, especially for a commercial vehicle. And I noticed that the ladder on the roof did not have any asphalt on the rungs - and yet the painted signs on the topper advertised asphalt membrane roofing work. When I looked in through the windshield, I got quite a surprise - this pickup truck, with a simple, cheap shell on the back, had a walk-through built from the cab into the bed. When I tried to look in, immediately, in seconds, a man climbed out from the back through the walk-through, got behind the wheel, started it up and drove it away. I never saw it or any of the other trucks again.

    This wasn't the end of the strange goings on, by any means. I went to Las Vegas for three days to visit a friend, and as usual, had shut down all my electronics, including my computer. When I got back, I fired up my almost brand-new computer for an overdue email session, and to my horror, it would not boot. There was an operating system error, indicating that I didn't have permission to load certain files. This was odd, because I had set up the operating system just a few weeks earlier as the administrator, and had permission for everything. After several days of effort, I managed to come up with a workaround, and get the system to boot and be able to work with it, even if it was not working right. Then one night, I was watching Tech TV's "CyberCrime" program, and they had a special on the FBI's new virus-like spyware program, called Magic Lantern. They had a computer that they claimed was infected with it, with a defective installation - and the real shock was that the symptoms were identical to what I was experiencing with my own computer! This is when it all became clear - the truck in front of the house was an "LP truck" (listening post truck) designed to monitor a bug placed in my home in previous illegal breakins. And the computer problems were the result of a bungled Magic Lantern installation.

    After hearing that Sophos, an anti-virus software firm in Britain, had announced that it would include a definition of Magic Lantern in their virus definition files, I contacted them and offered to conribute my Magic Lantern-infected hard disk to the cause. At first they were very interested in my offer of the hard disk. But then, all of a sudden and right out of the blue, they began denying that there even was such a thing as Magic Lantern! Interesting how they suddenly had come to that conclusion, in spite of the fact that its existence had been acknowledged by the FBI itself!

    Furthermore, for some time, my email had begun to arrive days, occasionally even weeks after it had been sent - something that simply shouldn't be happening, given how the internet's email protocol is structured and how my domain email was set up. This was especially true of mail to and from certain correspondents - all activists, and only email with political content. The delays almost never happened with email of a non-political character, or at most, were only an hour or two. And political email I sent was delayed by many hours or days, and occasionally failed to arrive at all, even though I never got a bounce message. The only possible explanation for these selective delays, given my server's configuration, was interception.

    I also noticed something strange about my snail-mail. Some of the flaps on the back of certain envelopes had the appearance of having been opened and resealed. When I started watching for this, I noticed it was a pattern - only envelopes dealing with my financial affairs and first-class mail to my friends was apparently being opened. And it was arriving late, too, often several days later than it ordinarily should have.
    i'm sure he believes George Bush personally ordered the FBI to spy on him.



    He blames "religon" for his problems:

    bout this time, I began to realize that I just couldn't reconcile Mormonism with what I knew to be true about science (particularly evolution) and about the facts of my own homosexuality. I knew that I did not choose homosexuality, and that it was nonsensical to believe that God had made me that way only to persecute me. Such a notion made out God to be a very irrational, capricious Being unconcerned with issues of fairness. I just couldn't accept such a concept. One evening, while watching a documentary on evolution, it finally dawned on me that I needed to make a choice.

    These words of Shakespeare had always had deep meaning for me: "Above all else, to thine own self be true; and it must follow as the night the day, thou cans't be untrue to any man."

    In weighing the evidence, in leaving out all the emotional appeals, applying only the laws of reason and logic to the problem, I had to face the facts. If I was to be true to myself, I had to accept that Mormonism, which claims infallibility, was clearly wrong on at least this issue; other problems existed with Mormon doctrine too, which I couldn't reconcile with the realities of modern science and history. So after much thought and a great deal of self-examination, I abandoned the faith of my heritage.

    I began a long period of agnosticism. I could see no evidence before me that could justify a belief in a god.
    So allsmiles do you know the sources that he uses for your quotes?
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

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  3. #18
    TOL Legend Granite's Avatar
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  4. #19
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean
    Do you know the auther of the webiste you gave? I checked out your "source". I 'm not impressed. He doesn't cite any sources.
    I don't know him. I'm looking into the Hyksos personally and so far he's dead on. Google the word Hyksos. It's easy dude.

    What scholars is he talking about? How can I examine the work of these scholars if I don't know who they are and what they actually wrote.
    So that means you can't use the internet to do research? That's awful! I'm sure there's a medical name for a condition like this...

    Again he cites no source. He mearly asserts the Genesis "borrowed" from Gilgamesh.
    Seeing as how the tale of Gilgamesh predates the writing of Genesis and the stories are both so similar, he probably thought that it was a safe assumption to make. He's not the first to make this assertion and you should know that. I do. Try refuting his assertion instead of discrediting him.

    How can we respond to this "information" if we don't know where it comes from?
    Justchristian is doing his research to respond to this, I have, Granite seems to know what he's talking about, Fool was appreciative and seems to be interested in looking into it. Everyone's on this bandwagon but you. You're more interested in discrediting the author than critically examining his work.

    I read some of the author's other "writings". BillyBob would say this guy is a He advocates abortion because it lower crime
    Well, it's a free country, he can think what he likes. That hardly changes the evidence that supports his assertion. I've been studying the story of the Hyksos and their corroboration to the Hebrews and I'm an unbeliever. You've been studying the author of the assertion in the hopes of discrediting him because his political views differ from your own. So far you've displayed no previous knowledge of the Hyksos.

    Maybe if you do some research into this you'll learn something new. How scary.

    The author also left the USA because he actually believes the US government was spying on him!! I guess he was been watching to many X-Files epsiodes
    Once again, free country and it doesn't change the evidence that supports his assertion.

    i'm sure he believes George Bush personally ordered the FBI to spy on him.
    Sarcasm doesn't change anything.

    He blames "religon" for his problems
    So? Maybe he's right.

    So allsmiles do you know the sources that he uses for your quotes?
    I cited extra links that describe the Hyksos. The author was aware of the Hyksos, obviously did his homework and presented a theory which makes a lot of sense. Nothing you have said has refuted the assertion, discredited the author, or made the evidence disappear.

    You appear to not know what you're talking about, and while that is welcome here (I want us all to learn something new together ) taking blind pot shots at someone for presenting an evidence-supported theory is not.

    Thank you!
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

  5. #20
    Journeyman
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    Maybe the Bible isn't but the chronology is, Canaan at that time was not sparsely populated, but their were political upheavals going on in Canaan at that time, a large scale rebellion of the pastoral and rural peoples against the agricultrally based city dwellers, The Hyksos could have the Hatti or Hittite people, and other Canaanites allied with them who were being expelled from Canaan. When Israel set about expelling the rest of them, they could have high-tailed it over to Egypt, they could be the Hyksos not the Hebrews.
    God Hates Onanists - A Topic Too Controversal For TOL

  6. #21
    Old Timer Justin (Wiccan)'s Avatar
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    Berean,

    All arguments about the author to the side, what is your opinion of the information?
    Justin

    My lance is tipped o the hammered flame,
    My shield is beat o the moonlight cold;
    And I won my spurs in the Middle World,
    A thousand fathom beneath the mould."

  7. #22
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    I meant to say maybe the Bible isn't wrong but the chronology is

  8. #23
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin (Wiccan)
    Berean,

    All arguments about the author to the side, what is your opinion of the information?
    Before I can have an opinion of the information I need to see the sources that he used. Allsmiles challenged us to review and refute (if possible) the information. Since the author didn't perform the actual research and he didn't cite sources I cannot give an opinion.

    I posted the other information as evidence of bias the author has. The author is obviously very biased against "religion". This logically doesn't prove his infomation is false of course. But how do I know if he didn't just use infomation that bolstered his postion and ignored information that contradicted his position. Since he didn't cite sources I have no way of knowing this.

    Christian apologists sometimes get accused of only using evidence that supports their veiwpoints. Well, I believe this author is doing the same thing.
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

    I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
    . -Ktoyou

    I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

  9. #24
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allsmiles

    So that means you can't use the internet to do research? That's awful! I'm sure there's a medical name for a condition like this...
    Wait, someone is arguing for a position and the I have do the research for them? That's kind of silly don't you think?

    Seeing as how the tale of Gilgamesh predates the writing of Genesis and the stories are both so similar, he probably thought that it was a safe assumption to make. He's not the first to make this assertion and you should know that. I do. Try refuting his assertion instead of discrediting him.
    How can one refute an assertion without looking at the evidence. He hasn't posted any. Everyone pretty much agrees that Gilgamech predates Genesis, or more specifcally the story of Noah since Genesis has other stories in it. However because Gilgamesh predates The Noah narative, that doesn't "prove" Noah was a copy. Some points

    1) There are similarites between the two stories yet they are many significant differences:

    2) What is the actual evidence that the author of Genesis actually copied Gilgamesh besides the "similarities"?

    Justchristian is doing his research to respond to this, I have, Granite seems to know what he's talking about, Fool was appreciative and seems to be interested in looking into it. Everyone's on this bandwagon but you. You're more interested in discrediting the author than critically examining his work.
    I am actually doing my own research on this. I was showing strong evidence that the author is highly biased. It's so obvious a blind man can see this.

    Well, it's a free country, he can think what he likes. That hardly changes the evidence that supports his assertion. I've been studying the story of the Hyksos and their corroboration to the Hebrews and I'm an unbeliever. You've been studying the author of the assertion in the hopes of discrediting him because his political views differ from your own. So far you've displayed no previous knowledge of the Hyksos.
    Of course he can think what he likes. And? I wasn't even talking about Hyksos. Did I even mention this in my previous post. I was asking for the sources that the author used?

    Maybe if you do some research into this you'll learn something new. How scary.
    I'm always trying learning something. But I prefer to learn new things from people that actually know what they are talking about.
    Once again, free country and it doesn't change the evidence that supports his assertion.
    Again, what "evidence? Sources, please.

    You appear to not know what you're talking about, and while that is welcome here (I want us all to learn something new together ) taking blind pot shots at someone for presenting an evidence-supported theory is not.

    Thank you!
    Whatever. Typical
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

    I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
    . -Ktoyou

    I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

  10. #25
    Old Timer Justin (Wiccan)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean
    Since the author didn't perform the actual research and he didn't cite sources I cannot give an opinion.
    Well, actually it's not impossible to give an opinion in that situation, but I quite agree that it's impossible to give an effective rebuttal.

    I much prefer William G. Dever's Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? Not only did Dever do the research, he's one of the most vocal (and effective) opponents of the "Biblical Nihilist" sschool of thought. And Israel Finklestein's The Bible Unearthed. They do come up with some different conclusions on some things (Finklestein is not one or Dever's favorite people), but these are two people who have "been there and done that" as far as the Biblical Archaeology.
    Justin

    My lance is tipped o the hammered flame,
    My shield is beat o the moonlight cold;
    And I won my spurs in the Middle World,
    A thousand fathom beneath the mould."

  11. #26
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin (Wiccan)
    Well, actually it's not impossible to give an opinion in that situation, but I quite agree that it's impossible to give an effective rebuttal.

    I much prefer William G. Dever's Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? Not only did Dever do the research, he's one of the most vocal (and effective) opponents of the "Biblical Nihilist" sschool of thought. And Israel Finklestein's The Bible Unearthed. They do come up with some different conclusions on some things (Finklestein is not one or Dever's favorite people), but these are two people who have "been there and done that" as far as the Biblical Archaeology.
    This is the kind of stuff I like to read. I'm a bit of a history and archeology buff. Thanks, Justin. I shal lreturn in a few days after I've done some reading...
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

    I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
    . -Ktoyou

    I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

  12. #27
    Over 5000 post club fool's Avatar
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    The Berean;
    Like you said the essay didn't say anything that hasen't been said before.
    I liked it because it wasn't to smarmy
    I know of others that are.
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
    is one
    google will get you 800,000 hits for "jesus never existed"
    http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...+never+existed
    that in itself proves nothing
    other than it's not a new idea
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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  13. #28
    Journeyman justchristian's Avatar
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    Here I go allsmiles. A little more rushed than I wanted but I am off camping tommorow for the weekend. But not being an historian or really interested in history this is as much of a response from me as you'll get. I'll just run through the article as I read it on the john throughly.

    Firstly,
    The reality is that if a series of plagues had been visited upon Egypt, thousands of slaves escaped in a mass runaway, and the army of the Pharaoh were swallowed up by the Red Sea, such events would doubtless have made it into the Egyptian documentary record. But the reality is that there isn't a single word describing any such events.
    Since would a slaves God kicking your butt and then freeing your free man power be a matter of public record? I think it's perfectly reasonble to assume the reason we dont see a record of the events in Exodus in egypt is becasue that would be something they would rather forget. Could the Hykos accout be the historical coverup? I am not saying it is. If you were to hold that Exodus events did happen you would either say they weren't recorded at all in Egypt or the were recorded different (most likely the Hyksos).

    Egypt ruled the region known today as Palestine. How do we know this? We know it not only from Egyptian records themselves, which talk about tribute taken from the various towns and cities in Canaan, but from archaeological evidence within the region itself, which shows a number of settlements which were clearly Egyptian military outposts.
    If you trust the Egypt account so much why mention the military outposts at all. Assuming the Hyksos ended up where these out posts were isnt it possible these were their outposts based on what they new from Egypt?

    Agricultural productivity, and the ability of people to sustain trade with the lowlands, was subject to varying climatic conditions, meaning that famine was a frequent occurence. When crops failed and trade could not be sustained, it was not uncommon for people to flee the region and head for refuge where crops were dependable. The nearest such place was the Nile delta in Egypt.
    ...
    Every time there was a famine in Judah, Israel or Canaan, refugees headed for Egypt. The event was so common, and the refugees so numerous, that they eventually became a substantial minority group, influential in Egypt, where they were known as the Hyksos, as is now very clear from the archaeological record.
    Isnt this the Jospeh story? right before exodus? According to the bible thats how they became slaves. Indebited to Egypt for food dutring famines they eventually became servents in Egypt, over time this turned to slavery.

    Besides the Exodus story line, the biggest problem is the dates: the Bible places the Exodus at about 1200 B.C.E., yet the story of the Hyksos culminates in 1570 B.C.E. It is quite likely that the story of the Hyksos is the story that eventually, through generations of revisionistic retelling, became the myth of the Exodus -- another example of history being rewritten to flatter the storytellers rather than to record the unvarnished truth.
    Just curious how sure they are on their dates. And even if they are right so the timeline is off by 370 years? Does that matter? I'll give you the Exodus account has a bias slant. But So does the Egyptian account. I would think it impossible to derive "unvarished truth" about history.


    Anyway, the Hyksos grew in influence until they eventually took control of Egypt, which they ruled, with considerable cruelty and tyrrany during the Fifteenth Dynasty, beginning in 1670 B.C.E. The Egyptians had finally had enough, though, and rebelled against the rule of the Hyksos and drove them out a century later in 1570 B.C.E. They weren't just driven out, either; the Egyptians pushed them back into Canaan with considerable force, driving them all the way to the Syrian frontier, sacking and burning Canaanite cities along the way.
    OK so this is where my rushed reponse takes affect. I didnt fact check this cruel/tyrannical ruling. Even if it is accurate, if slaves beat me up and ran off I'd claim they took over and were meanies too. (that is going along with the historical coverup theory).

    Extensive archaeological surveys of the Sanai desert have never shown any encampments dating from the time of the Exodus, either before, during or after the time of the Ramsean pharoahs. At least two sites mentioned in the exodus story have been positively identified and carefully and extensively excavated, but no evidence of late bronze-age occupation or encampment has been found at either site.
    I've have actually seen archeology shows on tv who claim the contrary. Mount Sanai for example is thought to be found through matching biblical geography and there was an encampment there.


    Sorry I accidently hit post reply so I'll continue on next post....
    Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.

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    Journeyman justchristian's Avatar
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    Additionally, the Sanai Desert was literally dotted with Egyptian military outposts, and nowhere in the Sanai could the Hebrews have been more than a day's travel from one of them. It is inconceivable that they could have remained undetected in the Sanai for forty years.

    These military outpost scatterd in the Sanai couldnt be Hyksos encampments? Again I no historitan but just a thought. And its inconcievable eh? Assuming they were actually being lead by God daily?
    The story of the Exodus is clearly mythmaking designed to portray a possible forced expulsion of oppressors as an escape of victims.
    Or the Egypt records are a false account designed to portray a possible escape of victems through a real God(who flys in the face of their religion) as a clorious forced explusion of oppressors.


    He commands Abraham to sacrifice his first born son, an act which is not at all surprising given the nature of the pagan religions of the time. Many of these pagan religions (and remember that Yahweh got his start as a Canannite pagan god) considered the first-born to be the seed of a god. Because of this, they were often sacrificed to the god who presumably sired them.
    Is it just me or did he forget something.....hmmmm....oh yeah it was a test....a ram was provided....there was no son sacrifice.

    This is where he starts making statments seemingly void of historical/archeological reference. But this is all long enough.



    In closing let me again state I am no historian. This is my response to his history but it is only a uneducated response. IF the Exodus story is pure fiction loosely based on a explusion of tyrannical oppressors it really has little bearing on my faith. I have said before and say again I dont believe in God because I believe in the Bible - I believe in the Bible becuase I believe in God. My preexisting faith in God is not dependant on the Bible's (esspecially the OT's) historical accuracy. It is a story of God working through and in his people. It is filled with truths. These truths are the divine inspiration. They are what are inerrant and reliable, not the literal Bible. The Word not the word, the Spirit not the text, the Christ not the nation.
    Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.

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    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchristian
    Here I go allsmiles. A little more rushed than I wanted but I am off camping tommorow for the weekend. But not being an historian or really interested in history this is as much of a response from me as you'll get. I'll just run through the article as I read it on the john throughly.
    Have fun camping man. I'm no historian myself, so don't worry about. We all only know what we hear or read.

    Firstly,
    [font=arial, helvetica][size=-1]

    Since would a slaves God kicking your butt and then freeing your free man power be a matter of public record? I think it's perfectly reasonble to assume the reason we dont see a record of the events in Exodus in egypt is becasue that would be something they would rather forget. Could the Hykos accout be the historical coverup? I am not saying it is. If you were to hold that Exodus events did happen you would either say they weren't recorded at all in Egypt or the were recorded different (most likely the Hyksos).
    This makes sense, but if it applies to Egypt, than it applies to the Hebrews too. History can be embellished, especially if you're passing it on to posterity, it makes sense to present it in the best light possible, without regard to complete honesty. I'll admit it's a strong possibility, but if it is for the Egyptian records, than it's a possibility for Biblical record as well.

    Considering the significance of sun worship is ancient Egypt I think it's a stronger possibility of the plagues, particularly the darkness, being mentioned.

    If you trust the Egypt account so much why mention the military outposts at all. Assuming the Hyksos ended up where these out posts were isnt it possible these were their outposts based on what they new from Egypt?
    It's a great possibility actually. I hope everyone here understands that I'm very open to the possibility of being wrong.

    Isnt this the Jospeh story? right before exodus? According to the bible thats how they became slaves. Indebited to Egypt for food dutring famines they eventually became servents in Egypt, over time this turned to slavery.
    All right, so the bible corroborates history, very cool, it makes sense.

    Just curious how sure they are on their dates. And even if they are right so the timeline is off by 370 years? Does that matter? I'll give you the Exodus account has a bias slant. But So does the Egyptian account. I would think it impossible to derive "unvarished truth" about history.
    I've been checking around and the dates the auther quoted seem pretty solid. And yes, I would say a near 400 year disparity does make a difference. Not sure how big yet, but it is a difference.

    OK so this is where my rushed reponse takes affect. I didnt fact check this cruel/tyrannical ruling. Even if it is accurate, if slaves beat me up and ran off I'd claim they took over and were meanies too. (that is going along with the historical coverup theory).
    Yeah, that makes sense. Remember though, we have two account of this happening. We have the biblical record of the Hebrews leaving Egypt which is biased towards the Hebrews (obviously, and wasn't there some sacking involved with that?), and we have the story of the Hyksos which is biased towards Egypt, obviously. Christians would have to argue that the Hyksos and Hebrews co-existed and were not one in the same. I think it makes more sense for the Hyksos and the Hebrews to be one in the same.

    I've have actually seen archeology shows on tv who claim the contrary. Mount Sanai for example is thought to be found through matching biblical geography and there was an encampment there.
    There's always going to be dispute over that which we cannot explain. There's evidence for both sides, but the idea that the Hyksos and the Hebrews were two different entities when the stories are so close and when the time lines, though there's a 400 year disparity, are so close.

    At first I didn't understand why christians would be opposed to this, but now I understand perfectly

    In closing let me again state I am no historian. This is my response to his history but it is only a uneducated response. IF the Exodus story is pure fiction loosely based on a explusion of tyrannical oppressors it really has little bearing on my faith. I have said before and say again I dont believe in God because I believe in the Bible - I believe in the Bible becuase I believe in God. My preexisting faith in God is not dependant on the Bible's (esspecially the OT's) historical accuracy. It is a story of God working through and in his people. It is filled with truths. These truths are the divine inspiration. They are what are inerrant and reliable, not the literal Bible. The Word not the word, the Spirit not the text, the Christ not the nation.
    I like this part, except for the historical accuracy part. When it comes to this story, I can understand how you would let the origin of the Exodus myth slide. If you go further back than you'll discover where historical accuracy becomes very, very important. I'm going to get into this later.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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