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Thread: Interaction with perfect foreknowledge?

  1. #16
    Just livin' life one day at a time. Poly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky
    It also demonstrates how God's glory can be seen through our bad choices as well as our good without Him actually orchestrating everything.
    And knowing God's glory will be seen regardless of man's bad choices causes one to see just how powerful He is. Exceedingly more so than if He just planned every little thing out.
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  2. #17
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney
    Knight,

    Interesting arguments in your original post. I have a question about something you said in this paragraph.....

    When you said "infinitely into the past" did you mean "infinitely into the future"?
    If not can you plean explain what you mean because I don't understand what you mean by God knowing his interactions with us infinitely in the past.

    Kevin
    Some folks, such as yourself claim that God is outside of time or is able to see the future and one way or another God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge and has always had perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.

    If you hold that view (like you do) then you must believe that God's foreknowledge which He had a millennia ago contained EVERYTHING. Everything including His interactions with us etc.

    As you know, I don't hold that view.
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    Old Timer Justin (Wiccan)'s Avatar
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    OK, let me make sure I'm understanding this ....

    The basic argument: "God can have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge without closing the future and removing man's freewill."

    Your basic argument is that the argument must be false, else God would not bother interacting with us?
    Justin

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  4. #19
    Gold level Subscriber kmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Some folks, such as yourself claim that God is outside of time or is able to see the future and one way or another God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge and has always had perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.

    If you hold that view (like you do) then you must believe that God's foreknowledge which He had a millennia ago contained EVERYTHING. Everything including His interactions with us etc.

    As you know, I don't hold that view.
    Knight,
    I wasn't trying to assert any theological views. It was an honest question. I wasn't sure if you were saying God had that foreknowledge since an infinite time in the past, or something else. Despite not trying to you answered my question. Thank you.

    Kevin

  5. #20
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin (Wiccan)
    The basic argument: "God can have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge without closing the future and removing man's freewill."

    Your basic argument is that the argument must be false, else God would not bother interacting with us?
    Kinda, sorta . . .
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  6. #21
    Old Timer Justin (Wiccan)'s Avatar
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    Ok. I can dig that.
    Justin

    My lance is tipped o the hammered flame,
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  7. #22
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin (Wiccan)


    Ok. I can dig that.
    One question that must be asked is . . . what is the point of God's interaction with man?

    Why did He tell Adam not to eat from the tree?

    Why did He tell Noah to build a boat?

    Why did He tell Moses to tell Pharaoh He would smite Egypt?

    Why did He tell Jonah to tell Nineveh that in 40 days they would be overthrown?

    Why did He become flesh?

    Why did He pick and teach His apostles?

    Why did He convert the apostle Paul?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    Why interact? What is the purpose of God's interactions?
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    Old Timer Justin (Wiccan)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Why interact? What is the purpose of God's interactions?
    I think it's far more relevant to ask "What is the purpose of claiming these interactions are historical," but that's just me.
    Justin

    My lance is tipped o the hammered flame,
    My shield is beat o the moonlight cold;
    And I won my spurs in the Middle World,
    A thousand fathom beneath the mould."

  9. #24
    Journeyman justchristian's Avatar
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    I still see the logic jump that God's foreknowledge of his interaction limits that interaction. The idea of reason behind disclosing foreknowledge as preventive or building trust is valid. But again I simply don't agree with the logic error so many claim that a closed future negates freewill or God's interaction. Meh, I'll chew on it some more.
    Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justchristian
    I still see the logic jump that God's foreknowledge of his interaction limits that interaction. The idea of reason behind disclosing foreknowledge as preventive or building trust is valid. But again I simply don't agree with the logic error so many claim that a closed future negates freewill or God's interaction. Meh, I'll chew on it some more.
    I had the same problem. Demonstrated by THIS exchange .

    When Knight posted this thread, the opening post just clicked for me...and i saw where the real difficulty lies.

    The personal interaction of God completely resolves the problem I was having...which was this:
    In order to accomodate this interaction as effective I had to answer "yes" to the hypothetical scenario that if God revealed to me in His perfect foreknowledge something that would occur, could I then act otherwise?
    My answer "yes" was true...but at the same time negates God's "perfect forknowledge" because what He said would happen... would not happen because I ACTED ON the knowledge He provided. That made it nonsensical.

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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Knight,

    Brilliant argument. I love it.

    It occurred to me while I was reading both of your two major posts that this is a twist on and a vast expansion of an argument that I've been using for a while about how closed viewers must live their lives just as though the future was actually open only you've had the absolute genius idea of applying that logic to God's actions rather than man's. Brilliant!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  12. #27
    Journeyman justchristian's Avatar
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    I fully agree that from our perspective we must live as though the future is open, that our choices are ours. They are.

    In order to accomodate this interaction as effective I had to answer "yes" to the hypothetical scenario that if God revealed to me in His perfect foreknowledge something that would occur, could I then act otherwise?
    My answer "yes" was true...but at the same time negates God's "perfect forknowledge" because what He said would happen... would not happen because I ACTED ON the knowledge He provided. That made it nonsensical.
    OK. Great thanks for spelling that out...more goodness to chew on. But I am off to camp. God Bless you guys this weekend. See you on monday.
    Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchristian
    But again I simply don't agree with the logic error so many claim that a closed future negates freewill or God's interaction.
    I agree.

    For instance:

    - Knight has the free will to change his mind on this issue.
    - I know that I won't change Knight's mind,
    - yet I continue (for the same excellent reasons he put forth in his second post) to pursuade him that my perfect foreknowledge doesn't negate his free will!

    Now, I'm just a lowly human. Just think how much better God's foreknowledge is.

    Go ahead, Knight.... prove me wrong!

  14. #29
    Over 1000 post club logos_x's Avatar
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    Perhaps a definition of "Foreknowledge" and "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" would help....

  15. #30
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptech
    I agree.

    For instance:

    - Knight has the free will to change his mind on this issue.
    - I know that I won't change Knight's mind,
    - yet I continue (for the same excellent reasons he put forth in his second post) to pursuade him that my perfect foreknowledge doesn't negate his free will!

    Now, I'm just a lowly human. Just think how much better God's foreknowledge is.

    Go ahead, Knight.... prove me wrong!
    If this is the sort of knowledge you are speaking of when you say God knows the future then there is no disagreement. But this is not what Arminians and Calvinists say at all because in fact you do not know what Knight will or will not do, you only have really good reason to believe what he will do and are completely convinced that you are right about what he will not change his mind. But having good reason to believe is not the same as knoweldge.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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