Theology Club: circumcised vs uncircumcised

beloved57 · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
One gospel addresses the "identity" of Jesus, that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

The other gospel addresses the "purpose" of the Cross, that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Paul preached the same Gospel to both jew and Greek, its right before your eyes Rom 1:15-17,4

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This same Righteoueness was revealed to and witnessed by the law and Prophets Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

This proves that the saved OT Saints believed the same Gospel that Paul was now Preaching, and The Righteousness of God revealed to Faith !

Dialogos · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
One gospel addresses the "identity" of Jesus, that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

The other gospel addresses the "purpose" of the Cross, that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus is not the Christ, the Son of God for the uncircumcised?
Or maybe it is not important that the uncircumcised believe this?

For the circumcised, the purpose of the cross is what? Is the cross irrelevant to the circumcised?

Jerry Shugart · Jun 26, 2014

Dialogos said:
So Jesus is not the Christ, the Son of God for the uncircumcised?
Or maybe it is not important that the uncircumcised believe this?

The great majority of the Gentiles would not even know what the word "Christ" meant nor would they know the meaning of the term "Son of God."

For the circumcised, the purpose of the cross is what? Is the cross irrelevant to the circumcised?

The purpose of the Lord Jesus' death applied to all in the same way, no matter of nationality.

Now it is time for you to answer a question.

Do you believe that the declaration preached to the Jews, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is a gospel?

Saved.One.by.Grace · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
You know very little about what is in the Bible but you pose as an expert!

Do you never tire of embarrassing yourself?

Jerry, are we going to get personal in our conversation? If I started the personal attacks I apologize. Why don't we each take a step back and interpret the scriptures with all due respect.

If the woman in question was saved at that moment, Jesus didn't need to die on the cross or arise from the dead. To teach that is heresy. I would be surprised if you truly believed that. So, is this what you're theology is claiming? Are you a KJV only person?

I explained the meaning of the word gospel since it is routinely being misused on this thread. I take it you take exception to the meaning of gospel? If so, that's a very unorthodox stand.

As for me posing as an expert, I'm sorry you got that impression. I study God's word daily as a good many people do on this forum. AMR is an expert as are several others. (If I start naming them I'm afraid I'll unintentionally slight someone). I pray daily for God to bless me with wisdom regarding His word. I am not bound by any denomination but would feel at home in Reformed Baptist Church, at least until they nuckled under to the (homosexual lobby).

I am not an expert or a teacher. I am a believer. I love the Lord as I believe you do too.

Dialogos · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
The great majority of the Gentiles would not even know what the word "Christ" meant nor would they know the meaning of the term "Son of God."

So then why, in Paul's epistles written to primarily gentile audiences, does he use both of those terms?

Paul uses the term χριστος quite liberally in his letters to the gentiles.
Paul uses the word χριστος over 60 times in the book of Romans.
Are you therefore arguing that Paul preached the gospel of the circumcision to the church in Rome?

Paul also taught that Jesus was the "Son of God"

In 2 Cor 1:19 Paul identifies the fact that Jesus is the "Son of God" with his gospel.

In Gal 2:19 Paul makes a pretty big deal about the fact that the live he lives he lives by faith in the "Son of God."

Is Paul preaching circumcision gospel here?

In Ephesians 4:13 Paul talks of the building up of the body of Christ with the goal being a unity of faith and knowledge of the "Son of God."

Is the body of Christ saved by the circumcision gospel?

Jerry said:
The purpose of the Lord Jesus' death applied to all in the same way, no matter of nationality.

Further evidence that there is only one gospel.

Jerry said:
Now it is time for you to answer a question.

Ok, shoot.

Jerry said:
Do you believe that the declaration preached to the Jews, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is a gospel?

It is an essential element of the gospel, yes.

Jerry Shugart · Jun 26, 2014

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
Jerry, are we going to get personal in our conversation? If I started the personal attacks I apologize. Why don't we each take a step back and interpret the scriptures with all due respect.

What you said here was personal and it was an attack:

It's always someone elses fault, never Jerry's. Jerry is a coward who always runs away from a good fight or tough conversation.

You said:

If the woman in question was saved at that moment, Jesus didn't need to die on the cross or arise from the dead. To teach that is heresy. I would be surprised if you truly believed that. So, is this what you're theology is claiming? Are you a KJV only person?

Are you aware of a translation which leaves out the fact that the Lord Jesus told the woman that she was saved? I cannot find even one translation where the Lord Jesus did not tell her that her faith had saved her.

Do you always put your "reasoning" above what the Bible reveals?

I explained the meaning of the word gospel since it is routinely being misused on this thread. I take it you take exception to the meaning of gospel? If so, that's a very unorthodox stand.

Did not the quote you provided say that the word means "good news"? That is the way that I have used the word gospel on this thread.

Now a question for you.

Was it good news or gospel when it was declared that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

Saved.One.by.Grace · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
What you said here was personal and it was an attack:

And your constant attacks against Calvinism are not personal attacks? They sure seem personal to me and directly aimed at me. But moving on.

Jerry Shugart said:
You said:

Are you aware of a translation which leaves out the fact that the Lord Jesus told the woman that she was saved? I cannot find even one translation where the Lord Jesus did not tell her that her faith had saved her.

I am respectfully asking you if Jesus had to die and arise from the dead for her salvation? Yes or No.

Jerry Shugart said:
Do you always put your "reasoning" above what the Bible reveals?

God gave me a brain and an intellect. I intend to continue to use what I was blessed with.

Jerry Shugart said:
Did not the quote you provided say that the word means "good news"? That is the way that I have used the word gospel on this thread.

Is that why you come up with so many gospels? The truth is there is one Gospel, but many have spoken the good news as it was revealed to them in part. John the Baptist is a perfect example of that. When Jesus started His ministry, He picked up where John left off.

Jerry Shugart said:
Now a question for you.

Was it good news or gospel when it was declared that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

Yes.

One last question you did not answer. Are you a KJV-Only advocate?

Jerry Shugart · Jun 26, 2014

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
And your constant attacks against Calvinism are not personal attacks? They sure seem personal to me and directly aimed at me. But moving on.

Since Calvinism is not a person then my remarks attacking Calvinism are not personal attacks. Your idea is not a smart one.

I am respectfully asking you if Jesus had to die and arise from the dead for her salvation? Yes or No.

Yes, He had to do those things for anyone to be saved. But that does not mean that God cannot declare anyone saved prior to the Cross.

Do you still not believe that the Lord Jesus told a woman that her faith had saved her, and He told her that before the Cross?

God gave me a brain and an intellect. I intend to continue to use what I was blessed with.

From what I can see you put your reasoning above what the Scriptures reveal and that is not very smart.

Is that why you come up with so many gospels? The truth is there is one Gospel, but many have spoken the good news as it was revealed to them in part. John the Baptist is a perfect example of that. When Jesus started His ministry, He picked up where John left off.

So men were being saved by hearing only a part of the one gospel? Once again that idea is not a smart idea.

One last question you did not answer. Are you a KJV-Only advocate?

No, but why would you ask? Because I quoted from the KJV or because you are looking for anything that you can find in an effort to discredit me?

I asked you the following question:

"Was it good news or gospel when it was declared that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?"

And here is your answer:

Yes.

You are right. It is a gospel and men are saved when they believe it (Jn.20:30-31; 1 Jn.5:1-4).

But why should anyone believe that that gospel is the same gospel as the "gospel of grace," that gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Please answer that question.

Dialogos · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
But why should anyone believe that that gospel is the same gospel as the "gospel of grace," that gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Please answer that question.

uh, because Paul taught that the "gospel of grace" was the gospel of the Son of God.

Jerry Shugart · Jun 26, 2014

Dialogos said:
uh, because Paul taught that the "gospel of grace" was the gospel of the Son of God.

So because of that we are supposed to believe that the gospel which declares the "identity" of Jesus is the same gospel that declares the "purpose" of the Cross?

That makes no sense and what you say only shows your desperation.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Jun 26, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
Since Calvinism is not a person then my remarks attacking Calvinism are not personal attacks. Your idea is not a smart one.

So you're calling all Calvinists stupid.

Jerry Shugart said:
Yes, He had to do those things for anyone to be saved. But that does not mean that God cannot declare anyone saved prior to the Cross.

So who is saved without Jesus saving work on the cross? Scripture to back up your claim is required.

Jerry Shugart said:
Do you still not believe that the Lord Jesus told a woman that her faith had saved her, and He told her that before the Cross?

So was she saved at that moment or was she already predestined for salvation before the foundation of the earth was laid?

Jerry Shugart said:
From what I can see you put your reasoning above what the Scriptures reveal and that is not very smart.

Now that's the second time you've called me stupid.

Jerry Shugart said:
So men were being saved by hearing only a part of the one gospel? Once again that idea is not a smart idea..

I never said anyone was saved hearing only a part of the one true Gospel. And for the third time, you're calling me stupid.

Jerry Shugart said:
No, but why would you ask? Because I quoted from the KJV or because you are looking for anything that you can find in an effort to discredit me?...

Neither. The first bible I read through and studied from was the KJV. I wanted to make certain you didn't have a prejudice against modern translations.

Jerry Shugart said:
But why should anyone believe that that gospel is the same gospel as the "gospel of grace," that gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Please answer that question.

First you answer these questions: do you not believe in the Gospel of grace that Paul taught? Why do you insist this is a different gospel? Do you dismiss the Epistles of Paul, Peter, Jude and John? Do you place the teachings of Paul at a lower level than the Gospels? Do you hold to the Gospels of Matthew and John to a higher degree since they were first hand witnesses? Do you believe in grace? Do you believe you can resist God's grace, thereby making you stronger than God, and discounting God's sovereignty?

Jerry Shugart · Jun 27, 2014

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
So you're calling all Calvinists stupid.

No, I am saying that many of the ideas presented in Calvinism are in error.

First you answer these questions: do you not believe in the Gospel of grace that Paul taught?

Of course I believe in it.

Why do you insist this is a different gospel?

Because, unlike you, I can clearly see that the gospel that declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is NOT the same gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Since you cannot see that truth there is no use talking with you about this anymore. You are determined to remain ignorant of the truth that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

You are a waste of time and you have been brainwashed by Calvinism and therefore you are incapable of seeing the truth of two gospels. Sir Robert Anderson describes you perfectly here:

"In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The historic Church once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 61).

It is obvious that you are delusional because you insist that the "good news" that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

beloved57 · Jun 27, 2014

jerry s

Because, unlike you, I can clearly see that the gospel that declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is NOT the same gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

What scripture says that ?

That both are Gospel Truths are here in Romans. Rom 1:4

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

and

Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Paul preached this Gospel to jews and Gentiles Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So again, you bear false witness and believe a lie !

Saved.One.by.Grace · Jun 27, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
No, I am saying that many of the ideas presented in Calvinism are in error.

And I have yet to hear an idea from you that disputes the T-U-L-I-P truths. I believe you are teaching error. You somehow got it into your head that your duty is to attack Calvinists. Why not Roman Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, etc. Is it because you too believe in a gospel of works? Your pride prevents you from experiencing the full grace lavished on us by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jerry Shugart said:
Because, unlike you, I can clearly see that the gospel that declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is NOT the same gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Since you cannot see that truth there is no use talking with you about this anymore. You are determined to remain ignorant of the truth that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

You are a waste of time and you have been brainwashed by Calvinism and therefore you are incapable of seeing the truth of two gospels. Sir Robert Anderson describes you perfectly here:

"In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The historic Church once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 61).

It is obvious that you are delusional because you insist that the "good news" that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

I believe in one Gospel, and that is revealed in Holy Scriptures. What you believe, I do not know anymore. You anxious to point out the spec in another's eye, but refuse to admit you have a plank in your own eye.
:sigh:

Dialogos · Jun 27, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
So because of that we are supposed to believe that the gospel which declares the "identity" of Jesus is the same gospel that declares the "purpose" of the Cross?

That makes no sense and what you say only shows your desperation.

The gospel which declared the identity of Jesus (Son of God) is the same gospel that declares the purpose of the cross.

The problem with your brand of MAD is that you want to make distinctions without having any real reasons to claim a difference.

The gentile is saved in the same way as the Jew.

Jerry Shugart · Jun 27, 2014

Dialogos said:
The gospel which declared the identity of Jesus (Son of God) is the same gospel that declares the purpose of the cross.

So they are both the same "good news"?

That is ridiculous. And are we supposed to believe that a person can be saved by believing only a part of the gospel?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

beloved57 · Jun 27, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
So they are both the same "good news"?

That is ridiculous. And are we supposed to believe that a person can be saved by believing only a part of the gospel?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You don't believe the Gospel ! Do you believe that Tulip Truths are the Gospel ?

Posted from the TOL App!

Jerry Shugart · Jun 27, 2014

beloved57 said:
You don't believe the Gospel ! Do you believe that Tulip Truths are the Gospel ?

What about the Calvinist teaching that regeneration or the receiving of life PRECEDES faith?

Here we see that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

beloved57 · Jun 27, 2014

Jerry Shugart said:
What about the Calvinist teaching that regeneration or the receiving of life PRECEDES faith?

Here we see that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You don't believe the Gospel ! Do you believe that Tulip Truths are the Gospel ? Yes or No ?

Posted from the TOL App!

Posted from the TOL App!

Jerry Shugart · Jun 27, 2014

beloved57 said:
You don't believe the Gospel ! Do you believe that Tulip Truths are the Gospel ? Yes or No ?

NO!

You don't believe that life comes as a result of believing, do you? Calvinism teaches that regeneration or the receiving of life PRECEDES faith?

Here we see that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

Can you see that life comes as a result of believing?

Theology Club: circumcised vs uncircumcised

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