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Thread: One on one: Mr. 5020 & Knight

  1. #16
    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    That simply isn't true.

    God could accurately predict the future in the following alternate two ways:

    1. God could have ordained all of the future and created beings to act out His script.
    Neither one of us believe this one, so we'll leave it alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    2. God could accurately predict the future by brining events to pass, i.e., making things happen. He is after all .... God!
    By overriding free will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Would you agree that the above two statements are both examples of other ways God could predict the future?
    Indeed, but they both have to do with the removal of free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I don't think its impressive in the least for a person to predict the ending of a movie they have already seen. In fact, I hate when people spoil the endings of movies, its selfish and rude. And it most certainly doesn't demonstrate that they have used any intelligence in predicting anything. The only reason they have any knowledge of the ending is because they already saw it! Big deal!
    I agree, like I said in my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    When God said . . .

    So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished! And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. - John 19:30

    Was this some type of figure of speech or was it really finished?

    Is Christ still suffering on the cross?
    No, His job was finished.

    Can I ask a question now? Is God capable of knowing the future, if He wanted to?

  2. #17
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    Neither one of us believe this one, so we'll leave it alone.
    I realize that, but it is another possible option.

    By overriding free will?
    I wouldn't call it overriding at all.

    It's more like persuading the will to conform to God's will.

    Did God override Jonah's freewill? Heck no! Jonah fought so hard to avoid conforming to God's will he spent three days in a fish! Eventually Jonah reluctantly did what God wanted him to do.

    God works with our will to orchestrate His desire for creation at a macro level not a micro level.

    Indeed, but they both have to do with the removal of free will.
    Nope . . . only one of them does.

    No, His job was finished.
    And there you have it!

    Mr. 5020 earlier I asked you . . .
    Are all points of history continually happening to God for an eternity past, present and future?

    Or, is the past in the past for God?
    To which you responded . . .
    God knows that yesterday is what I consider the past, though He is still there. God knows that I consider tomorrow the future, yet He was, He is, and He is to come - He's already there.
    Yet now you are contradicting that answer by stating that Jesus is no longer suffering on the cross.

    How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?

    Can I ask a question now? Is God capable of knowing the future, if He wanted to?
    Yes. As I stated earlier, God could have created a reality in where the entire future was scripted and humans were nothing more than complicated robots accurately fulfilling that script.

    Yet God didn't want robots!

    He wanted beings that could think and feel on their own without coercion.

    Now there is something that God cannot do . . .
    God cannot simultaneously know the future in every detail AND give His creation the ability to chart their own future by making their own decisions. God knows that exhaustively knowing the future would remove our ability to have a true freewill.

    Therefore . . .

    God, wanting to create truly capable freewill agents had only one option . . . delegate some of His power in the form of freewill to His creation knowing full well that some of these agents would use their freewill in opposition to His will.
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  3. #18
    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?
    I'll come back to this one.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Yes. As I stated earlier, God could have created a reality in where the entire future was scripted and humans were nothing more than complicated robots accurately fulfilling that script.

    Yet God didn't want robots!

    He wanted beings that could think and feel on their own without coercion.

    Now there is something that God cannot do . . .
    God cannot simultaneously know the future in every detail AND give His creation the ability to chart their own future by making their own decisions. God knows that exhaustively knowing the future would remove our ability to have a true freewill.

    Therefore . . .

    God, wanting to create truly capable freewill agents had only one option . . . delegate some of His power in the form of freewill to His creation knowing full well that some of these agents would use their freewill in opposition to His will.
    I'm not sure you answered my question. If right now, God decided He wanted to peek into the future, could He do it?


    *I am in the process of moving into my own apartment, so my Net access is limited for the next few days.

  4. #19
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    I'll come back to this one.*
    Great!

    I'm not sure you answered my question. If right now, God decided He wanted to peek into the future, could He do it?
    No.

    There is no future to "peek" into. The future doesn't exist! The past doesn't exist. The only thing that actually exists is the ever passing moment (which by the way is also the name of a excellent CD by MxPx).

    You seem to think the future exists, can you tell me where it exists? Is it simply in God's mind? Or elsewhere?

    *I am in the process of moving into my own apartment, so my Net access is limited for the next few days.
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  5. #20
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    LOL . . . The Edge bad repped me for this thread with the note...."the future is known by God. Otherwise we wouldn't have Revelation to John"

    I love you Edge your TOL's biggest knob.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    LOL . . . The Edge bad repped me for this thread with the note...."the future is known by God. Otherwise we wouldn't have Revelation to John"

    I love you Edge your TOL's biggest knob.
    On the flip side , he good reps me for this thread every chance he gets.

  7. #22
    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    No.

    There is no future to "peek" into. The future doesn't exist! The past doesn't exist. The only thing that actually exists is the ever passing moment (which by the way is also the name of a excellent CD by MxPx).

    You seem to think the future exists, can you tell me where it exists? Is it simply in God's mind? Or elsewhere?
    This is a confusing post (except for the CD part). Like you're trying to say time exists in a physical location. To ask "where does the future exist" is no harder to answer than "where does the present exist," I think.

    Also, my question didn't get answered the way I expected it to. drbrumley has said that he is an open theist and that God can at anytime peek into the future, but He won't, so that humans have free will. With that in mind, I was a little caught off guard by your answer, because I've never cared enough about this doctrine to give it half an hour to study it.

    Like I said, I will be out for a few days. I will take a little more time to study this "wacky thing" called "open theism." If you have any references that will help that study, send 'em over.

    I agree, .

  8. #23
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    On the flip side , he good reps me for this thread every chance he gets.
    Mr. 5020 that isn't a good sign.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Mr. 5020 that isn't a good sign.
    You don't have to tell me that man. The Edge is more flaky than Tony the Tiger.

  10. #25
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    Like I said, I will be out for a few days. I will take a little more time to study this "wacky thing" called "open theism." If you have any references that will help that study, send 'em over/
    Fair enough.

    And when you ghet time you can answer the question from a few posts ago . . .

    How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Fair enough.

    And when you ghet time you can answer the question from a few posts ago . . .

    How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?
    God's omnipresence doesn't include the suffering of Himself or His children. He is in the past, yet He forgets our sins, yet we will be judged by our works at the Bemas Seat.

  12. #27
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    God's omnipresence doesn't include the suffering of Himself or His children. He is in the past, yet He forgets our sins, yet we will be judged by our works at the Bemas Seat.
    I have no idea what you just said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I have no idea what you just said.
    Me neither.

    I guess I was making this point. He exists in the past. The Bible says that He forgets our sins. But, we will be judged at the Bemas Seat. I was saying that I do not fully understand how He forgets our sins but we are judged by them later.

    Unlike OV/CV theists, I am not willing to put God in a box because I don't understand every concept. If God's ever small enough to fit in that box, He may not be big enough to be God.

  14. #29
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    Me neither.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I edited my post.

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