Creation vs. Evolution

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MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear gcthomas,

And do you read my scriptural verses in your Bible to research things?? I don't think so. Dave doesn't just pay attention to himself. If he did, he wouldn't be trying to talk some sense into all of you.

Michael
 

noguru

Well-known member
Dear gcthomas,

And do you read my scriptural verses in your Bible to research things?? I don't think so. Dave doesn't just pay attention to himself. If he did, he wouldn't be trying to talk some sense into all of you.

Michael

Michael do you ever get tired of being a one person cheer leading squad for the losing team?
 

alwight

New member
Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact? It is both.

Thesis: Evolution is a fact. Antithesis: Evolution is a theory, not a fact.

Here we see again how evolutionists avoid the possibility of the falsification of the theory of evolution. The theory keeps changing each time it is confronted with a contradiction that nullifies it--cell entropy, with and explanation, another unproven theory, that explains away the contradiction--"material and energy are transferred from one hierarchical level to another" in cells.

--Dave
But is the ToE actually fact or not?

In my mind anyway I have no alternative agenda to support, I am only interested in a rational natural explanation.
For me the ToE is indeed fact because every piece of evidence is adequately explained even by Darwin's original unchanged 150 year old theory. Cherry picking examples of earlier arguably dishonest, inaccurate or revised scientific conclusions does not change that evidence, or invalidate good rigorous science, nor has anything so far falsified it. It remains for me the best naturalistic explanation there is for life as we know it.

You otoh Dave, it seems to me anyway, already have a specific religious agenda based on a literal view of an ancient scripture being the inerrant word of God. For you the ToE cannot be allowed to be fact. If science ever seems to conflict with that scripture in any way then your beliefs will trump science every time, whatever it claims, however well evidenced and rigorous it is. You are far more interested in finding fault and discrepancy rather than that of honest enquiry.

I have simply concluded that the ToE is indeed fact after considering as much evidence based scientific conclusions as I can, noting how well all the sciences compliment each other on it.
Your agenda imo is to pre-conclude that the ToE is false whatever the scientific conclusions may be. In fact you seem to go to extraordinary lengths to ignore what is said to you by others in favour of presenting something else that you think must now be explained instead.
 

Stuu

New member
You are far more interested in finding fault and discrepancy rather than that of honest enquiry.
Dave doesn't know about the thing he opposes so has nothing significant to say against it, and is forever in the situation of people educating him on his mistakes.

He never seems grateful for the free tuition, for some reason.

Stuart
 

gcthomas

New member
Dear gcthomas,

And do you read my scriptural verses in your Bible to research things?? I don't think so. Dave doesn't just pay attention to himself. If he did, he wouldn't be trying to talk some sense into all of you.

Michael

Actually, Michael, I often do. So many people here have different interpretations of them in isolation that I have to look for myself at the context of verses.

And Dave IS just paying attention to himself. He spouts scientific nonsense to actual scientists and won't listen to what actual scientist know, preferring to parrot msrepresentations as if they were true.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Why not? After all, you would allege in the case of your god it has the ability to interact materially.

It is just special pleading for you to claim your god belongs in some category invisible to science. How does it, and if you can't explain exactly how, then on what grounds do you expect to be taken seriously?

Stuart

No, it's a premise for a proposition that requires faith.

Creationism requires faith just as evolution requires faith.

Creationism is a rational faith in that the premise is consistent with a conclusion, evolution is not.

The cell has functional information that has purpose.

Nature has no intelligence and therefore cannot create cells with information that has purpose.

God is intelligent and therefore can create cells with information that has purpose.

Explanations that imagine how nature can be purposeless and yet create cells with purpose is saying nature is both purposeless and purposeful which is irrational, having it both ways.

The mutation is a product of nature, nature is also the environment that selects the useful mutations it has created before hand. This amounts to giving nature a purpose for the mutation and therefore also giving it intelligence. This contradicts the original premise that nature has no intelligence.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Have you ever seen a Mexican Wave around a sports stadium?

The wave moves around the stadium, but the individuals that comprise the wave do not. The individuals, just like in evolving populations, are just transient, static members of the pattern.

Individuals do not evolve, because evolution is a descendants effect.

Just how did fish become amphibians...etc., if individual members did not change gradually into them???

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yes. That is the case with evolution, i suspect. It is falsifiable, in that there are plenty of predictions that could have been found wrong, but they were not. the predictions were correct. So it is falsifiable in principle but, I believe, cannot be falsified in practice since it is most likely a true fact of nature.

:idunno:

Evolution predicted the evolution of man from a ape like ancestor which the fossil record did not produce and a fossil record over all that shows stasis an sudden appearance of all species.

PE is a theory that explains that evolution turned out to be "not so gradual and uniform" which is why we have no record of it occurring as previously predicted.

The prediction of uniform gradualism was falsified and the theory of evolution was proven false.

The new theory, PE, is an unverifiable explanation says the evolution of things happened to rapidly for fossil evidence to record it. That amounts to a tautology and a philosophy, not science.

--Dave
 

gcthomas

New member
Evolution predicted the evolution of man from a ape like ancestor which the fossil record did not produce and a fossil record over all that shows stasis an sudden appearance of all species.

PE is a theory that explains that evolution turned out to be "not so gradual and uniform" which is why we have no record of it occurring as previously predicted.

The prediction of uniform gradualism was falsified and the theory of evolution was proven false.

The new theory, PE, is an unverifiable explanation says the evolution of things happened to rapidly for fossil evidence to record it. That amounts to a tautology and a philosophy, not science.

--Dave

PE is not a competing theory to Darwinism, but is a theory within it. Darwin himself agreed with most of PE:

Many species when once formed never undergo any further change but become extinct without leaving modified descendants; and the periods, during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they have retained the same form. It is the dominant and widely ranging species which vary most frequently and vary most, and varieties are often at first local—both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links in any one formation less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they have spread, and are discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species.​
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=583&itemID=F387&viewtype=side

He also said "Species of different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate, or in the same degree. In the oldest tertiary beds a few living shells may still be found in the midst of a multitude of extinct forms... The Silurian Lingula differs but little from the living species of this genus".

So who suggested that entirely uniform gradualism was a fundamental part of expected fossil finds? Darwin's writings don't correspont with your caricature of the theory.

It seems you have set up another Aunt Sally to knock down (isn't that a logical fallacy?)
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Have you ever seen a Mexican Wave around a sports stadium?

The wave moves around the stadium, but the individuals that comprise the wave do not. The individuals, just like in evolving populations, are just transient, static members of the pattern.

Individuals do not evolve, because evolution is a descendants effect.

You have made a mistake in your example.

The individual members are not static, each member must "stand up".

I agree that no individual member moves around the stadium, just as no individual member evolves from ape to man (or from homo erectus to modern man) in it's own life time. I was obviously not saying this nor implying it.

But each mutation must occur in an individual, just as each member in a wave must stand up.

A mutation is evolution, a mutation has an effect on an individual. There must be that first mutation that makes a fin a little more like a limb. There must be that first mutation that makes a limb a little more like a wing, and other mutations must occur that changes some physical feature gradually into something else from generation to generation, that serves a different function than the purpose served from what it was before--fins function for swimming in water, limbs function for walking on land, wings function for flight in air.

Also, more than one generation coexist in a population which means there are individuals that are evolving, that is, have a mutation that others in that same population do not have.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
But is the ToE actually fact or not?

In my mind anyway I have no alternative agenda to support, I am only interested in a rational natural explanation.
For me the ToE is indeed fact because every piece of evidence is adequately explained even by Darwin's original unchanged 150 year old theory. Cherry picking examples of earlier arguably dishonest, inaccurate or revised scientific conclusions does not change that evidence, or invalidate good rigorous science, nor has anything so far falsified it. It remains for me the best naturalistic explanation there is for life as we know it.

You otoh Dave, it seems to me anyway, already have a specific religious agenda based on a literal view of an ancient scripture being the inerrant word of God. For you the ToE cannot be allowed to be fact. If science ever seems to conflict with that scripture in any way then your beliefs will trump science every time, whatever it claims, however well evidenced and rigorous it is. You are far more interested in finding fault and discrepancy rather than that of honest enquiry.

I have simply concluded that the ToE is indeed fact after considering as much evidence based scientific conclusions as I can, noting how well all the sciences compliment each other on it.
Your agenda imo is to pre-conclude that the ToE is false whatever the scientific conclusions may be. In fact you seem to go to extraordinary lengths to ignore what is said to you by others in favour of presenting something else that you think must now be explained instead.

Yes, I agree that evolution is no doubt the best natural explanation of life, but it is clearly not a rational one.

You want a supernatural Biblical explanation of life to be one that is inadmissible.

I say both a natural and a supernatural explanation of life are admissible but only one can be true, and only the supernatural one is rational.

--Dave
 

doloresistere

New member
Why would I subject it to peer review?

Stuart

It would be an attempt to show you that God is invisible to science. You could even record the event with various instruments but the cause for the phenomenon would likely not be considered evidence for the existence of God.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
PE is not a competing theory to Darwinism, but is a theory within it. Darwin himself agreed with most of PE:

Many species when once formed never undergo any further change but become extinct without leaving modified descendants; and the periods, during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they have retained the same form. It is the dominant and widely ranging species which vary most frequently and vary most, and varieties are often at first local—both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links in any one formation less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they have spread, and are discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species.​
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=583&itemID=F387&viewtype=side

He also said "Species of different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate, or in the same degree. In the oldest tertiary beds a few living shells may still be found in the midst of a multitude of extinct forms... The Silurian Lingula differs but little from the living species of this genus".

So who suggested that entirely uniform gradualism was a fundamental part of expected fossil finds? Darwin's writings don't correspont with your caricature of the theory.

It seems you have set up another Aunt Sally to knock down (isn't that a logical fallacy?)

Gould points out that Charles Darwin was a firm believer in gradualism. Indeed, it was an essential component of Darwin's defense of evolution and his promotion of natural selection. Darwin's gradualism arose from his commitment to the uniformitarianism of Lyell and his emphasis on the vast age of the Earth. According to Gould there are several different meanings of gradualism but the one that conflicts with punctuated equilibria is the idea that change must be gradual at geological scales.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/06/charles-darwin-was-gradualist.html


Who are you trying to fool, us, other evolutionists, or just yourself?

--Dave
 

noguru

Well-known member
Yes, I agree that evolution is no doubt the best natural explanation of life, but it is clearly not a rational one.

You want a supernatural Biblical explanation of life to be one that is inadmissible.

I say both a natural and a supernatural explanation of life are admissible but only one can be true, and only the supernatural one is rational.

--Dave

What specific logic are you using to say that the natural explanation for biodiversity is not a rational one, but if that logic is equally applied, says that a "supernatural" one is a rational one?
 

noguru

Well-known member
Gould points out that Charles Darwin was a firm believer in gradualism. Indeed, it was an essential component of Darwin's defense of evolution and his promotion of natural selection. Darwin's gradualism arose from his commitment to the uniformitarianism of Lyell and his emphasis on the vast age of the Earth. According to Gould there are several different meanings of gradualism but the one that conflicts with punctuated equilibria is the idea that change must be gradual at geological scales.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/06/charles-darwin-was-gradualist.html


Who are you trying to fool, us, other evolutionists, or just yourself?

--Dave

The debate between those who hold to gradualism vs. PE is one of degree. It is one that says instead of a million years to a speciation event it may happen in 250,000 years. In all reality we have evidence that certain stresses on a population will increase the quantity of mutations, but not the quality (neither positive nor negative - this percentage would be based on the environment). Increased quantity increases the possibility of faster change (but not by the degree you are looking for to support any YEC model I have seen. But you guys do not really like to put a specific model out there for scrutiny), and in a stressful environment (which is a type of climatic instability) these greater number of changes would better meet the requirements of the various possible environments.
 

noguru

Well-known member
It would be an attempt to show you that God is invisible to science. You could even record the event with various instruments but the cause for the phenomenon would likely not be considered evidence for the existence of God.

This is definitely an issue we must face squarely. However we can develop a model of YEC or any scientific creationist proposal (very loosely defined) and compare that to the evidence. If it is not supported by all the evidence than we can state that the empirical does not suggest such a model. Of course the empirical evidence might all be just an illusion, and a YEC model might be the "truth". But that would mean we cannot trust our own senses (and other more subtle technological measurements that feed them) in regard to the physical universe. I would think this is a less rational explanation however, than one which does consider all the empirical evidence.
 

gcthomas

New member
Gould points out that Charles Darwin was a firm believer in gradualism. Indeed, it was an essential component of Darwin's defense of evolution and his promotion of natural selection. Darwin's gradualism arose from his commitment to the uniformitarianism of Lyell and his emphasis on the vast age of the Earth. According to Gould there are several different meanings of gradualism but the one that conflicts with punctuated equilibria is the idea that change must be gradual at geological scales.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/06/charles-darwin-was-gradualist.html


Who are you trying to fool, us, other evolutionists, or just yourself?

--Dave

So both Darwin and Gould think that it is small, isolated populations that evolve rapidly into new species. They agree on the mechanism of natural selection, and that species appear quickly in the fossil record. They both agree on the broad timescale of evolution and the fact of common ancestry. They both accept the incomplete nature of the fossil record.

Darwin thought that most evolution happened somewhat gradually within splitting populations, with wide variations in rate, while Gould thought that most evolution happens around speciation, but some doesn't, and that there is plenty of gradualism seen in the higher clade hierarchies, with only speciation being 'punctuated'.

What are you suggesting here? That PE somehow undermines the whole of the neo-Darwinian synthesis?

If you do then you are either dissembling or crazy.
 
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