Creation vs. Evolution

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PaganSunday

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....Fortunately, there is a cure for ignorance, it's called education but, as they say, there is no cure for stupidity....

Religious platitudes and preaching is pointless if you want to engage secular issues.

The cure for ignorance is called repentance, not education. Education is a means to repentance, and that education can only come from God, through His word.

The stupid have afflicted themselves by saying there is no god. The wise declare there is a God. The cure for stupidity is called hellfire, but by then it will be too late for your doctrine of demons.

Jesus engaged in the secular and the spiritual. As he is our example, we follow him. His word is above yours, and one day, before you go to hell, you will bow down to him and confess He is God.
 

alwight

New member
Dear Alwight,

Spirituality is about finding genuine answers, whatever they happen to be, not making bald assertions from incredulity or presupposition.

Hi Buddy!! God's Best 4 U!!

Michael
That really depends on how whatever you have concluded to be true actually fits the facts Michael, rather than simply assuming you are correct because you'd like it to be so.
The actual truth is often unpleasant imo and if you need a more comforting illusion of life wearing a brand of God-Goggles rather than in accepting material facts, then that is only about how you deal with and cope with life and death, not you dealing with real material facts.
 

gcthomas

New member
You don't seem to be sufficiently educated to handle genuine technical discussion, so it seemed fitting.

:idunno:

An calling someone an idiot, or insinuating the same, gets the job done?

--Dave

It seems to be a strategy you use yourself:

You really haven't addressed what I said. You have deliberately not done so or you're not educated enough to realize it.

--Dave

You like to make insinuations but can't take them yourself? Grow up Dave. Take it like a man.
 

gcthomas

New member
If we have no evidence of species evolution, just what is the evidence for evolution beyond species?

--Dave

As you must know, species evolve quick enough that the changes may not be visible in an imperfect fossil record. The time between successive strata may be longer that the duration recorded by the strata themselves, and species may evolve elsewhere and then migrate to a new area (Eg for humans, we entered Europe on more than one occasion from Africa. Evolution is visible in East Africa, but in Europe what we see is sudden changes when new populations arrive)

Darwin himself wrote of the issue of the apparent jumps in species level evolution, and was clear that it is the families and genera and above that show the clear gradualism.

Your objections are not new and were thoroughly discussed in Darwin's day.



[SIZE=+1]X. On the Imperfection of the Geological Record[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]On the Sudden Appearance of Whole Groups of Allied Species[/SIZE]

T[SIZE=-1]HE ABRUPT[/SIZE] manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations, has been urged by several palæontologists—for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and Sedgwick—as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of evolution through natural selection. For the development by this means of a group of forms, all of which are descended from some one progenitor, must have been an extremely slow process; and the progenitors must have lived long before their modified descendants. But we continually overrate the perfection of the geological record, and falsely infer, because certain genera or families have not been found beneath a certain stage, that they did not exist before that stage. In all cases positive palæontological evidence may be implicitly trusted; negative evidence is worthless, as experience has so often shown. We continually forget how large the world is, compared with the area over which our geological formations have been carefully examined; we forget that groups of species may elsewhere have long existed, and have slowly multiplied, before they invaded the ancient archipelagoes of Europe and the United States. We do not make due allowance for the intervals of time which have elapsed between our consecutive formations,—longer perhaps in many cases than the time required for the accumulation of each formation. These intervals will have given time for the multiplication of species from some one parent-form: and in the succeeding formation, such groups or species will appear as if suddenly created.

On The Origin of Species
 
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alwight

New member
The cure for ignorance is called repentance, not education. Education is a means to repentance, and that education can only come from God, through His word.

The stupid have afflicted themselves by saying there is no god. The wise declare there is a God. The cure for stupidity is called hellfire, but by then it will be too late for your doctrine of demons.

Jesus engaged in the secular and the spiritual. As he is our example, we follow him. His word is above yours, and one day, before you go to hell, you will bow down to him and confess He is God.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful"
attributed to Seneca the Younger

I don't think that Hedshaker or other atheists and sceptics here will object to my saying that, as far as I know anyway, there is not one atheist on this forum who claims to know that God doesn't or gods don't exist. I've only ever known of a very few on atheist forums, most atheists are in fact also agnostic. A claimed certainty that a God does exist is as delusional imo as claiming to know the opposite.

But otoh maybe you are only recommending a pretence or delusion of knowledge as being better than being without? Why worry be happy?
 

Hedshaker

New member
The cure for ignorance is called repentance, not education.

No it is education, really.

Education is a means to repentance, and that education can only come from God, through His word.

Then how do you explain highly educated people with Nobel prises who don't buy your god concept?

The stupid have afflicted themselves by saying there is no god. The wise declare there is a God. The cure for stupidity is called hellfire, but by then it will be too late for your doctrine of demons.

Disbelief is not a claim to knowledge, it's just not believing. But maybe you should shove your ignorant threats. No one is interested :yawn:

Jesus engaged in the secular and the spiritual. As he is our example, we follow him. His word is above yours, and one day, before you go to hell, you will bow down to him and confess He is God.

:yawn:
 

6days

New member
Then how do you explain highly educated people with Nobel prises who don't buy your god concept?
Hedshaker... I think you would agree that there are also highly educated Nobel Laureates who have "bought the God concept"?
But belief in a Divine Being or a Creator do not really effect operational science. Science is accomplished equally by be believers and atheists.
 

6days

New member
Oh great Lee Strobel. :rolleyes:
Hot air is just about all he has to offer from my experience.

Science is about finding genuine answers, whatever they happen to be, not making bald assertions from incredulity or presupposition.
Interesting!
Soon as one of your own becomes a believer, they are full of hot air.

And, we agree that science is about finding genuine answers...whatever they happen to be.
 

Hedshaker

New member
Hedshaker... I think you would agree that there are also highly educated Nobel Laureates who have "bought the God concept"?
But belief in a Divine Being or a Creator do not really effect operational science. Science is accomplished equally by be believers and atheists.

He/she made the claim that the cure for ignorance is not education but something else:

The cure for ignorance is called repentance, not education. Education is a means to repentance, and that education can only come from God, through His word.

And my reply did not claim that only secular scientists can become Nobel laureates, but that the cure for ignorance is education. Education does not require repentance or religious belief, so my reply to him/her stands.
 

6days

New member
He/she made the claim that the cure for ignorance is not education but something else:

And my reply did not claim that only secular scientists are Nobel laureates, but that the cure for ignorance is education. Education does not require repentance or religious belief, so my reply to him/her stands.
ok... Thats why I said that I think you would agree with me. Just clarifying. Thx
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
As you must know, species evolve quick enough that the changes may not be visible in an imperfect fossil record. The time between successive strata may be longer that the duration recorded by the strata themselves, and species may evolve elsewhere and then migrate to a new area (Eg for humans, we entered Europe on more than one occasion from Africa. Evolution is visible in East Africa, but in Europe what we see is sudden changes when new populations arrive)

Darwin himself wrote of the issue of the apparent jumps in species level evolution, and was clear that it is the families and genera and above that show the clear gradualism.

Your objections are not new and were thoroughly discussed in Darwin's day.



[SIZE=+1]X. On the Imperfection of the Geological Record[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]On the Sudden Appearance of Whole Groups of Allied Species[/SIZE]

T[SIZE=-1]HE ABRUPT[/SIZE] manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations, has been urged by several palæontologists—for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and Sedgwick—as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of evolution through natural selection. For the development by this means of a group of forms, all of which are descended from some one progenitor, must have been an extremely slow process; and the progenitors must have lived long before their modified descendants. But we continually overrate the perfection of the geological record, and falsely infer, because certain genera or families have not been found beneath a certain stage, that they did not exist before that stage. In all cases positive palæontological evidence may be implicitly trusted; negative evidence is worthless, as experience has so often shown. We continually forget how large the world is, compared with the area over which our geological formations have been carefully examined; we forget that groups of species may elsewhere have long existed, and have slowly multiplied, before they invaded the ancient archipelagoes of Europe and the United States. We do not make due allowance for the intervals of time which have elapsed between our consecutive formations,—longer perhaps in many cases than the time required for the accumulation of each formation. These intervals will have given time for the multiplication of species from some one parent-form: and in the succeeding formation, such groups or species will appear as if suddenly created.

On The Origin of Species

Let's look at the evolution of man. There's a history here, the evolution of the theory of the evolution of man.

The first fossil evidence for human evolution was a faulty construction of Neanderthal.

images


Marcellin Boule’s vision in 1909 of Stone Age Man.

August 3, 1908: On this date, a nearly complete, buried skeleton of a Neandertal was discovered in a cave at La Chapelle-aux-Saints, France by two young clergymen, brothers Amédée and Jean Bouyssonie. It was examined by Marcellin Boule who overlooked its arthritic condition and as a result, his published description, which characterized the Neandertal as a shuffling, bent-kneed, and hairy creature capable of “rudimentary intellectual abilities,” became stereotypical. This mistake was corrected by research in the 1950s. http://diogenesii.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/august-3-1908-a-monday/

images


The next fossil evidence for the evolution of man was the fraud Piltdown man.

The Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological hoax in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. These fragments consisted of parts of a skull and jawbone, said to have been collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, East Sussex, England. The Latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni ("Dawson's dawn-man", after the collector Charles Dawson) was given to the specimen. The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan deliberately combined with the cranium of a fully developed modern human.--Wiki​

230px-Forestier_Nebraska_Man_1922.jpg


Then there was a mistaken identity called Nebraska Man.

Nebraska Man was a name applied to Hesperopithecus haroldcookii, a putative species of ape. Hesperopithecus meant "ape of the western world," and it was heralded as the first higher primate of North America. Haroldcookii was given as the species name in reference to the original discoverer of the tooth, Harold Cook. It was originally described by Henry Fairfield Osborn in 1922, on the basis of a tooth that rancher and geologist Harold Cook found in Nebraska in 1917. The discovery was made around ten years after the finding of Piltdown Man, another possible human ancestor that turned out to be a hoax. Although Nebraska man was not a deliberate hoax, the original classification proved to be a mistake.--Wiki​

Both Neanderthal and Piltdown man had a 40 year "undisputed" run. Nebraska man had a 10 year run with doubts by some from the outset.

The lesson learned form these examples is that a theory of what a presupposed evolution of man should look like is causing "bone pickers" to fabricate what they find to meet the theory.

--Dave
 

Hedshaker

New member
ok... Thats why I said that I think you would agree with me. Just clarifying. Thx

No worries. And yes, of course the ability to achieve a Nobel prise as nothing to do with ones personal beliefs. But PaganSunday's claim was, and I quote: "The cure for ignorance is called repentance, not education."

To counter that claim I only need produce one Nobel Laureate that does not subscribe to that view, just one. But as we know there are many. Link

Btw, the link is not for you but for PaganSunday should he/she return ;)
 

6days

New member
@DFT... Yes there have been some interesting frauds and deceptions. But most of all it has been a case of evolutionists overselling their beliefs. They over emphasize human characteristics on apes and over emphasize human characteristics found on non human fossils.

For example..... Remember the hugs hype from 'Ida' a few years ago? There was a huge news conference and I think every network in the world made mention of this "important" transitional fossil. The hype dies quickly as other paleontologists realized this almost perfectly preserved fossil was simply an extinct lemur... about the size of a large house cat.

You mentioned Neandertals. Thats my favorite example showing how false evolutionary beliefs, interpret the evidence incorrectly. Its been a slow process, but good research has slowly proved the evolutionists wrong.
 

alwight

New member
Interesting!
Soon as one of your own becomes a believer, they are full of hot air.

And, we agree that science is about finding genuine answers...whatever they happen to be.
I've seen Lee Strobel on several videos now and I speak from experience.
 

gcthomas

New member
Dave, are you suggesting that all 400 Neanderthal skeletons found have been fabricated by fraudsters?

If not then your evidence of a tiny number of frauds will be outweighed by the number of frauds found in Christian ministries. Does the presence of pastors in prison show Christianity is bunk?
 

6days

New member
Dave, are you suggesting that all 400 Neanderthal skeletons found have been fabricated by fraudsters?

If not then your evidence of a tiny number of frauds will be outweighed by the number of frauds found in Christian ministries. Does the presence of pastors in prison show Christianity is bunk?
Don't be so disenguous.
Dave didn't say that.
Neandertals were originally shown in mueums as stooped over hairy beasts. Evolutionists proclaimed them as dimwitted, incapable of speech and carnivores.
Evidence now shows they walked erect and were likely very strong. They were capable of speech.
Neandertals may have been smarter than modern humans... we don't know their IQ, but their brains were larger than ours.
Neandertals had farming practices...ate their veggies...
And genetics shows they are us. "Modern' humans and Neandertals interbred.
Neandertals simply had a few distinguishing characteristics, much the same as some modern human groups have distinguishing traits.

Neandertals... another failed apeman of evolutionists. They simply were a distinct people group, that are now extinct...but their genes live on in us.
 
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