Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
God has blessed me greatly.
I'm glad of that, God is good and His blessings endure forever. Merry Christmas, bro!

You need to consider more carefully, what you believe. It is as if someone told you what he or she said was the truth, and you just accepted it, without studying it.
I know that this isn't true. I wish you and I could really get to know each other, so that you wouldn't think this about me. If you knew me, you would realize that this statement (Me, just accepting something somebody says without studying for myself) is actually very funny.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The clue as to what we will be 'like' is in the Scripture itself:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We cannot see what we shall be, but John gave us a clue: we will see Him as He is. God is transparent. What He is and what He is about are clear when we stand in His Presence. We will know His Thoughts, His Feelings. All will know ours. There is no hiding anything from Him. We will know even as we are known. We will be no longer clueless or confused. All will be perfectly clear. That much is made clear from the Scripture. We will be settled and at peace, as He is with us, due to the knowledge we are now privy to.
 

Levolor

New member
The clue as to what we will be 'like' is in the Scripture itself:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We cannot see what we shall be, but John gave us a clue: we will see Him as He is. God is transparent. What He is and what He is about are clear when we stand in His Presence. We will know His Thoughts, His Feelings. All will know ours. There is no hiding anything from Him. We will know even as we are known. We will be no longer clueless or confused. All will be perfectly clear. That much is made clear from the Scripture. We will be settled and at peace, as He is with us, due to the knowledge we are now privy to.

I do agree with your assessment. An interesting thing about the word clear is that it shares the same root word as gold... the streets of heaven are said to be paved with gold... clear? ;)

And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. Revelation 21:18

and Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Interesting, I find, that all the colors mentioned around these verses are those of the rainbow... reminiscent of a covenant. :)

And God said to Noah, This [rainbow] is the token or sign of the covenant or solemn pledge which I have established between Me and all flesh upon the earth. Genesis 9:17

I read once that the white of the pearl actually contains all the colors. I've not been able to verify that once reading it, but we find the pearl upon each of the gates... as already shown above in Rev 21:21

Seems that once a person arrives at those gates and goes in that the covenant has become obvious/transparent to one's consciousness... as you have already said. :)
 

God's Truth

New member
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus is a man.


1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Jesus is the Spirit with a body...a physical Spiritual Body when in heaven, and a physical flesh and blood body when on earth.


Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three, and the three are One and the same Spirit, One and the same God.

God the Father is Spirit

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."


The Holy Spirit is Spirit.

Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."


Jesus is the Spirit.

Revelation 2:29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

2 Corinthians 3:17, 18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


There is only One Spirit.

See Ephesians 4:4, and Ephesians 2:18.
 

Levolor

New member
What does Satan have to do with humans becoming one with God?

I think, maybe, that godrulz' reference to the lie of Satan in the garden, may have something to do with Isaiah 14:12-24. Don't want to speak for godrulz though... lol, not that I could!


Being one with God, where there is no other, still has as an obvious result that we can never personally cause that experience of being one to happen. We are given it... we cannot give it to ourselves. Hence, we are like God, but not the same as. Otherwise we could experience it at will. We can be one in purpose, but I am speaking of the actual experience of there being no other. One.

'Like' and 'image of' do not equal 'same as'.

I picked these up off the web for like: synonyms: similar, much the same, comparable, corresponding, resembling, alike, analogous, parallel, equivalent, cognate, related, kindred.

Has me thinking of when Jesus said something to the effect when you have seen me you have seen the Father.... but I digress.

Merry Christmas to you, Jamie. :)
 

God's Truth

New member
I'm glad of that, God is good and His blessings endure forever. Merry Christmas, bro!
God is good. Amen. Merry Christmas to you too. Thank you.
I know that this isn't true. I wish you and I could really get to know each other, so that you wouldn't think this about me. If you knew me, you would realize that this statement (Me, just accepting something somebody says without studying for myself) is actually very funny.
I thought that you might have just accepted the trinity doctrine without studying it more, because you actually believe things that they oppose. I had at one time just thought I was a trinitarian. I just accepted it without studying about it.

You said:

“I believe that God the Father is God, and also Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, is fully God and also fully man, and I believe that God comes to us in the person of the Holy Spirit, Who is also Fully God.”

That is how I believe, but the trinitarians do not believe like that.
I will look for more of your posts to get to know better what you believe.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
'Like' and 'image of' do not equal 'same as'.

Good point. I wonder how similar Seth was to his dad.

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
(Genesis 5:3)​

Jesus is an image of his dad. I wonder how similar they are.

We will be like Jesus, I wonder how similar we will be to our Father.

I hope you enjoy your holiday.
 

Timotheos

New member
God is good. Amen. Merry Christmas to you too. Thank you.

I thought that you might have just accepted the trinity doctrine without studying it more, because you actually believe things that they oppose. I had at one time just thought I was a trinitarian. I just accepted it without studying about it.

You said:

“I believe that God the Father is God, and also Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, is fully God and also fully man, and I believe that God comes to us in the person of the Holy Spirit, Who is also Fully God.”

That is how I believe, but the trinitarians do not believe like that.
I will look for more of your posts to get to know better what you believe.

I've been trying to examine all of my beliefs to check to see if they are in alignment with the Bible. I'm fairly traditional, except that I don't accept ECT.

What other controversies? Let's see,
I have an occasional drink that contains alcohol, yet I am opposed to drunkenness.

I don't think that baptizing babies is Biblical, but each person should do what they feel is right in the matter of Baptism.

I don't believe in Pre-Trib rapture, I believe that Jesus Christ will return on the last day, which doesn't leave time for 7 years of tribulation after the last day.

I don't believe the tithe is a law that Christians have to follow, although I believe that Christians should be generous.

I don't believe that there is a particular day of the week that is better for worshiping God on than another day. The church I am part of meets on Sunday.

I don't believe Old Testament laws are binding on Christians, but I don't believe that Christians should steal, murder, commit adultery and what not. I don't believe we need a law to tell us (Christians) that these things are wrong. Some people do need laws to tell them what to do.

I don't believe that a "marriage" between a man and another man is really a marriage at all, but their confusion doesn't really matter to me. I think some people get a lot of attention supporting this, and some people get a lot of attention opposing this. I think this is what they really want. I don't hate anyone because of this matter.

I don't believe that there are certain articles of clothing that the church should require a person to wear or forbid them from wearing, but I don't think that shirt goes with those pants. :noway: If a woman wants to wear blue jeans, she hasn't committed the unpardonable sin.

I believe that guitars, drums, and cymbals are just as appropriate for "worship music" as pipe organs and robed choirs. I don't believe that rock music is "Satan's music".
 

Levolor

New member
Good point. I wonder how similar Seth was to his dad.

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
(Genesis 5:3)​

No doubt a chip off the old block. ;)

Jesus is an image of his dad. I wonder how similar they are.

We will be like Jesus, I wonder how similar we will be to our Father.

Perhaps one in purpose.

I think all will retain their individuality and personality. I suppose that we all will allow one another their own interests and opinions without the need to try to change them. Being unified doesn't necessarily mean thinking exactly the same thing in the same way. How boring it would be if we did. Yet, there will be no urge to claim what another has, or change what they think, or to take from another... etc.

I hope you enjoy your holiday.

Thank you :) And the same I hope you have as well.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
What does Satan have to do with humans becoming one with God?

We are one with God relationally, redemptively, by adoption, not metaphysically/ontologically. We are children of God, not gods/divine.

Gen. 3 was the lie from Satan that we will be gods/like God absolutely. Mormons, New Age, ?you fall for this deception. We are like God in character, not in being.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Where the fire is not quenched and the worm dies not, is Gehenna. "Everlasting punishment" is a poor translation of κόλασιν αἰώνιον. "The everlasting punishment" meaning their wicked behavior is corrected permanently. In the comparison of the rich man and Lazarus, we see that hell is a temporal place in Heaven. Just because it is temporary, it doesn't mean you should go there.

Furthermore, the narrow gate and wide gate comparison is about entering the Kingdom of God like Enoch. It was temporary thing related to early church and the kingdom of the heavens (lit. elevations).

The only way to escape Hell.

That's from one of Jesus' parables. The one about the Richman and Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, who, somehow, due to his opulence and pride, as well as his uncharitable life, he ended up with his being thrown in Hell as his afterlife punishment. Lazarus, on the other hand, due to his patience in spite of his ordeal, got to go to Heaven, which in Jesus' words, meant the bosom of Abraham.

And in Hell, the Richman lifted up his eyes, being in torments, look at Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and asked for mercy, if not for him, for his family. If he could send Lazarus to his family to testify to them, so that they could escape the torments of Hell. Then, Jesus, through Abraham's mouth said: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

The Richman insisted that if one went to them from the dead, they would repent. Then, Jesus, through Abraham, said that "If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:19-31)

This prophetic parable has been fulfilled every day for about 2000 years. Christians believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead, but it seems to me, there is no way to persuade them to listen to "Moses" and the Prophets.

The expression "Moses and the Prophets" means the Law in one word. Christians prefer to listen to Paul and not to Moses. They either do not believe Jesus' words or that Hell does not exist. It was just a parable anyway, what the heck? At least, believe the Prophets for a change. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins become as white as snow is to repent from our transgressions to the Law and return to obey it. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Jesus couldn't have been more clear, that to listen to "Moses" is the only way to escape Hell.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
We are one with God relationally, redemptively, by adoption, not metaphysically/ontologically. We are children of God, not gods/divine.

Gen. 3 was the lie from Satan that we will be gods/like God absolutely. Mormons, New Age, ?you fall for this deception. We are like God in character, not in being.

Was Jesus a child of God?

LA
 

Levolor

New member
The only way to escape Hell.

That's from one of Jesus' parables. The one about the Riichman and Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, who, somehow, due to his opulence and pride, as well as his uncharitable life, he ended up with his being thrown in Hell as his afterlife punishment. Lazarus, on the other hand, due to his patience in spite of his ordeal, got to go to Heaven, which in Jesus' words, meant the bosom of Abraham.

And in Hell, the Richman lifted up his eyes, being in torments, look at Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and asked for mercy, if not for him, for his family. If he could send Lazarus to his family to testify to them, so that they could escape the torments of Hell. Then, Jesus, through Abraham's mouth said: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

The Richman insisted that if one went to them from the dead, they would repent. Then, Jesus, through Abraham, said that "If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:19-31)

This prophectic parable has been fulfilled every day for about 2000 years. Christians believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead, but it seems to me, there is no way to persuade them to listen to Moses and the Prophets.

The expression "Moses and the Prophets" means the Law in one word. Christians prefer to listen to Paul and not to Moses. They either do not believe Jesus' words or that Hell does not exist. It was just a parable anyway, what the heck? At least, believe the Prophets for a change. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins become as white as snow is to repent from our transgressions to the
Law and return to obey it. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus couldn't have been more clear, that to listen to Moses is the only way to escape Hell.

I know you perhaps don't adhere/believe/get any credibility to the New Testament, but the following is true.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:37-40

When Christ gave His new commandment, it wasn't really new at all except for the part where He said: That ye love one another; as I have loved you, (part of John 13:34)

Those who do this, do know, not just believe, have faith and trust, that Jesus rose from the dead. He lives... tangibly so.
 

God's Truth

New member
I've been trying to examine all of my beliefs to check to see if they are in alignment with the Bible. I'm fairly traditional, except that I don't accept ECT.
I do not agree.
What other controversies? Let's see,
I have an occasional drink that contains alcohol, yet I am opposed to drunkenness.
I agree.
I don't think that baptizing babies is Biblical, but each person should do what they feel is right in the matter of Baptism.
I do not agree, because I think baptizing infants hinders people from being saved.

I don't believe in Pre-Trib rapture, I believe that Jesus Christ will return on the last day, which doesn't leave time for 7 years of tribulation after the last day.


I don't believe the tithe is a law that Christians have to follow, although I believe that Christians should be generous.

I agree.
I don't believe that there is a particular day of the week that is better for worshiping God on than another day. The church I am part of meets on Sunday.
Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Every day I obey Jesus. Christians can meet up any day.

I don't believe Old Testament laws are binding on Christians, but I don't believe that Christians should steal, murder, commit adultery and what not. I don't believe we need a law to tell us (Christians) that these things are wrong. Some people do need laws to tell them what to do.
I believe the Old Testament laws with some changes, are written on our hearts, and put in our minds.

I don't believe that a "marriage" between a man and another man is really a marriage at all, but their confusion doesn't really matter to me. I think some people get a lot of attention supporting this, and some people get a lot of attention opposing this. I think this is what they really want. I don't hate anyone because of this matter.
I do not support a marriage between same sex.
I don't believe that there are certain articles of clothing that the church should require a person to wear or forbid them from wearing, but I don't think that shirt goes with those pants. If a woman wants to wear blue jeans, she hasn't committed the unpardonable sin.
I do not think it matters what we wear as long as women are not trying to dress to be sexual, and that we do not follow the outrageous dress trends.


I believe that guitars, drums, and cymbals are just as appropriate for "worship music" as pipe organs and robed choirs. I don't believe that rock music is "Satan's music".
I agree.

I would say we agree on much. I do not agree with your belief on our spirits. I would have to give up many scriptures and revelation from God if I were to believe what you say happens to our spirits after the death of the physical body.
Thanks for letting me know better what your beliefs are.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Was Jesus a child of God?

LA

Jesus was the unique, eternal Son of God, equal with the Father in every sense. The Son shares the eternal nature of the Father, co-equal, co-eternal, co-essential. He was the child of Mary and Joseph in His humanity. He is the Son who is given (Deity) and the child who is born (humanity) Is. 9:6 He is not called a child of God like we are. We are also not called the eternal Son of God because we are not.

We are children of God by regeneration, adoption, not unique, not eternal, not God.
 

Ben Masada

New member
I know you perhaps don't adhere/believe/get any credibility to the New Testament, but the following is true.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:37-40

When Christ gave His new commandment, it wasn't really new at all except for the part where He said: That ye love one another; as I have loved you, (part of John 13:34)

Those who do this, do know, not just believe, have faith and trust, that Jesus rose from the dead. He lives... tangibly so.

It is indeed true that we shall "love" the Lord our God with all our mind and soul but we must be aware that the word love here must be taken as the struggle to know as much as we can of the Lord our God. And with reference to our neighbor "love" must be understood as respect. Love is an emotion and emotions are not under the law of shall or must to. Love cannot be dictated upon, there is.

Now, as the last paragraph above is concerned, if you know, you don't need faith. Therefore these two terms contradict each other. We need faith to believe that Jesus rose from the dead because nobody knows and the idea contradicts the Tanach as it was part of the gospel of Paul, a former Hellenistic Jew. (II Tim. 2:8)
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I don't believe that there is a particular day of the week that is better for worshiping God on than another day.

Yes, it's too bad God never gave any instructions as to his preference with regard to holy days. But then humans are free to do their own thing anyway and will be rewarded according.

And I'm sure you have studied all the NT scriptures commanding Sunday observance. After all you said, "I've been trying to examine all of my beliefs to check to see if they are in alignment with the Bible."

Which scripture is it that influenced you the most with regard to Sunday observance?
 

God's Truth

New member
It is indeed true that we shall "love" the Lord our God with all our mind and soul but we must be aware that the word love here must be taken as the struggle to know as much as we can of the Lord our God. And with reference to our neighbor "love" must be understood as respect. Love is an emotion and emotions are not under the law of shall or must to. Love cannot be dictated upon, there is.

Now, as the last paragraph above is concerned, if you know, you don't need faith. Therefore these two terms contradict each other. We need faith to believe that Jesus rose from the dead because nobody knows and the idea contradicts the Tanach as it was part of the gospel of Paul, a former Hellenistic Jew. (II Tim. 2:8)

God did not like it that the Jews could sin, make a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins.

The law was not based on faith.

We must have faith to please God.

If one has faith in God, one would see that Jesus Christ is from God.

Obey Jesus' teachings, and then you will see how what I say can be true.

Paul taught what Jesus taught. If you do not understand Paul, it is because you do not understand enough about God's Truth.
 

Levolor

New member
It is indeed true that we shall "love" the Lord our God with all our mind and soul but we must be aware that the word love here must be taken as the struggle to know as much as we can of the Lord our God. And with reference to our neighbor "love" must be understood as respect. Love is an emotion and emotions are not under the law of shall or must to. Love cannot be dictated upon, there is.

Agreed.

Now, as the last paragraph above is concerned, if you know, you don't need faith. Therefore these two terms contradict each other.

Indeed.

We need faith to believe that Jesus rose from the dead because nobody knows...

In this we disagree. There are those who know... knew then, and know now.

and the idea contradicts the Tanach as it was part of the gospel of Paul, a former Hellenistic Jew. (II Tim. 2:8)

Paul was not the only one who has seen my risen Lord... then, and present day as well.

It's interesting for us... somewhat sharing the same religion, yet still being sorta like atheists towards one another. You know their lines and opinions: deluded, thinks we are all liars. Not that I think this of you! lol... it's just we can't totally see eye to eye.

Are there any teachings in your tradition regarding Tzaddiks who after physical demise continue to help others?
 
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