Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. (*Luke‬ *24‬:*46-48‬ KJV)

Nothing there that ties the Lord Jesus' death to the forgiveness of sins. However, His words here do:

"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mt.26:27-28).​

There is no evidence that the Apostle understood the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words here on the eve of His crucifixion to be referring to the fact that "He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.6:21).

Instead, the Apostles would be aware of the Scriptures that promises to the house of Israel a "New Covenant", and according to that promise the Lord would "remember their sins no more" (Jer.31:34). Therefore when the Lord Jesus said that "This cup is the new covenant in my blood (Lk.22:20) they would understand that His death was the "earnest" or "surety" of the New Covenant. Charles Spurgeon said that "the blood is the symbol, the token, the earnest, the surety, the seal of the covenant" (Spurgeon, Sermon delivered on September 4th, 1859,#273).

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (*1 Corinthians‬ *15‬:*3-4‬ KJV)

Notice that Paul also says that He rose again the third day "according to the Scriptures." The OT Scriptures will be searched in vain for any testimony that the Messiah would be buried and then rise from the dead "the third day". What Paul is saying is that the evidence of these things can be found in the "types" of the OT but these truths were not openly revealed. It was not until the Lord Jesus said that "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth " (Mt.12:40) that anyone understood that the Scriptures in regard to Jonas were a "type" of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. It was not until after the Cross that anyone understood that the OT sacrifices were a "type" of the Lord Jesus dying for our sins.

Adam Clarke wrote: "It is not said anywhere in the Scriptures, in express terms, that Christ should rise on the third day; but it is fully implied in His types, as in the case of Jonah, who came out of the belly of the fish on the third day" (Clarke, The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, II, p.280).

Now I will ask you a couple of questions.

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?
 

godrulz

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So then Paul did not go to the Jews? Since Galatians 2 is about who is going to whom, not what they are delivering.

Even men who were called primarily to Africa (Bonnke) have preached in his own country, Germany, America, etc. A primary, evolving demarcation of ministry does not preclude sharing the gospel with all men everywhere. The Apostle to the Gentiles, Jesus the Jew, etc. reached all men even if they had primary focus at times.
 

intojoy

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That's all wrong jerry

First of all, the last Seder was a month prior to the passage I quoted!
Even if the Apostles did not fully realize the intent of the cross at the Seder we are told that Yeshua taught them Everything concerning Him in the scriptures. That included Isaiah who said that He would die a penal substitutionary death for Israel. That included that the Gentiles too would benefit from that death.

Why is your evidence that weak? When Yeshua says it was written about His suffering for sin - at That Time the Apostles understood everything.

I'm not buying your evidence - it's weak
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Even if the Apostles did not fully realize the intent of the cross at the Seder we are told that Yeshua taught them Everything concerning Him in the scriptures. That included Isaiah who said that He would die a penal substitutionary death for Israel.

You fail to understand that the "purpose" of the Cross was a "mystery" truth which was not revealed in the OT:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).​

The "purpose" of the Cross was kept secret in the OT and that was for a reason. If the princes of the world knew that "purpose" then they would not have crucified the Lord Jesus.

Here Paul refers to the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles as the "unsearchable riches of Christ":

"...the gospel, whereof I was made a minister...to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:6-9).​

He calls it that because the OT will be searched in vain for an open revelation of the purpose of redemption by blood, that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

I'm not buying your evidence - it's weak

Since you think that you know more about this than I do why did you refuse to answer my questions here?:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?
 

intojoy

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You fail to understand that the "purpose" of the Cross was a "mystery" truth which was not revealed in the OT:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).​

The "purpose" of the Cross was kept secret in the OT and that was for a reason. If the princes of the world knew that "purpose" then they would not have crucified the Lord Jesus.

Here Paul refers to the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles as the "unsearchable riches of Christ":

"...the gospel, whereof I was made a minister...to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:6-9).​

He calls it that because the OT will be searched in vain for an open revelation of the purpose of redemption by blood, that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).



Since you think that you know more about this than I do why did you refuse to answer my questions here?:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?

Sorry bud
Your first sentence is error because by stating it your way, you are claiming that Yeshua was not able to show thru the Old Testament the truth concerning the cross. That's what you just foolishly said w/out saying it. According to your logic, Yeshua did not understand why He went to the cross. According to your logic Yeshua didn't know why He died until Yeshua taught Paul why He died during the time spent with Paul in Arabia. Rich. Now, a mystery is not a mystery to God. Yeshua when He appeared post resurrection appeared in His glorified state thus He was fully omniscient of all things. Since He is God the mystery of the cross was presented to the apostles after the Seder, after the resurrection.

An example of a mystery being revealed in Christ's day?

Take a guess bro.

Peter was given divine illumination to understand the mystery of the God Man King even tho that was also an Old Testament mystery.

Therefore your argument is still too weak for my liking.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
You fail to understand that the "purpose" of the Cross was a "mystery" truth which was not revealed in the OT:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).​
:nono:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,<SUP>4</SUP> and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,(1Co 15:3-4 NKJ)​
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
:nono:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,<SUP>4</SUP> and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,(1Co 15:3-4 NKJ)​
It was hidden (wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom 1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV) in the scriptures until revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

But concerning we Gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV), it was hid in God (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV) that God's grace would be extended to the likes of us (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV).
 

intojoy

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Sorry bud
Your first sentence is error because by stating it your way, you are claiming that Yeshua was not able to show thru the Old Testament the truth concerning the cross. That's what you just foolishly said w/out saying it. According to your logic, Yeshua did not understand why He went to the cross. According to your logic Yeshua didn't know why He died until Yeshua taught Paul why He died during the time spent with Paul in Arabia. Rich. Now, a mystery is not a mystery to God. Yeshua when He appeared post resurrection appeared in His glorified state thus He was fully omniscient of all things. Since He is God the mystery of the cross was presented to the apostles after the Seder, after the resurrection.

An example of a mystery being revealed in Christ's day?

Take a guess bro.

Peter was given divine illumination to understand the mystery of the God Man King even tho that was also an Old Testament mystery.

Therefore your argument is still too weak for my liking.

Rumplebumpskin
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Therefore your argument is still too weak for my liking.

You are afraid of the truth and that is why you keep refusing to answer these two simple questions:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?
 

intojoy

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You are afraid of the truth and that is why you keep refusing to answer these two simple questions:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?

Again, during the Seder the disciples did not know the mystery of the cross. However over a month later when Yeshua in His glorified state in full omniscience explained the mystery of the cross to His disciples. Thank you for acknowledging this fact by running away from them and avoiding the truth of what I said concerning your "weak" argument of hermeneutical willful ignorance, your intellectual dishonesty. Here it is again. Yeshua clearly said that the cross was for forgiveness of sins, and that the gospel would begin in Jerusalem;

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
concerning me.
(Mystery)

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them,
(No longer a mystery)

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (*Luke‬ *24‬:*44-49‬ KJV)

(Teehe)
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member

You say a lot which cannot be supported by the Scriptures. At the same time you continue to refuse to answer these two simple questions:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?
 

intojoy

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Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (*Luke‬ *24‬:*45‬ KJV)

Case closed
 

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
:nono:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,<SUP>4</SUP> and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,(1Co 15:3-4 NKJ)​

Old Testament....
 

Bright Raven

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There is something wrong with elevating Paul above Jesus, the source of Pauline truth.

Paul does not elevate himself above Christ.

Galatians 1:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Case closed

If you are so sure that two different gospels were preached during the acts period then why do you continue to run and hide from these two simple questions?:

Do you believe that it was "good news" or gospel when it was revealed to the children of Israel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And do you believe that "everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is born of God and saved?

You refuse to answer them because you know that if you answer them honestly you will have to admit that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Old Testament....

Where in the OT do we find the truth of the gospel of grace and the imputed righteousness of God spoken of here?:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

The OT will be searched in vain for that truth because Paul makes it plain that the truth of the righteousness of God apart the law was not revealed until his day:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

That is why Paul calls the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles the "UNSEARCHABLE riches

"Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph.3:7-9).​

The OT will be searched in vain for the truths concerning the gospel of grace because that truth has been hidden in God from the beginning of the world.

But you say thsat it wasn't hidden!
 
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godrulz

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Hall of Fame
Paul does not elevate himself above Christ.

Galatians 1:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul does not, but MAD does practically in some ways.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
This is how Paul describes the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles:

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph.3:8).​

The OT will be searched in vain for the truth for a revelation of the "purpose" of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross.

I have searched and found a lot about the purpose of the cross in the OT so have you too probably though it would not be consistent with MAD to say so.

Noted Bible expositor Alfred Edersheim writes:

"That the view here given is that of the N.T...appears from a comparison of the application of the passage in St. Matt. viii. 17 with that in St. John i. 29 and 1 Pet. ii. 24. The words, as given by St. Matthew, are most truly a N.T. 'Targum' of the original. The LXX. renders, 'This man carries our sins and is pained for us;' Symmachus, 'Surely He took up our sins, and endured our labors;' the Targum Jon., 'Thus for our sins He will pray, and our iniquities will for His sake be forgiven.' (Comp. Driver and Neubauer, The Jewish Interpreters on Isaiah liii., vol. ii.) Lastly, it is with reference to this passage that the Messiah bears in the Talmud the designation, 'The Leprous One,' and 'the Sick One' (Sanh. 98 b]" (Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1971], Book 3, Chapter XIV, p.488).​
[/QUOTE]

When Edersheim says the words in Matthew "are most truly a N.T. 'Targum' of the original" what he is really saying is that Matthew is adding words where none existed before. I had a pastor once who was a Hebrew scholar. He too used say Mark treated the gospel account like a "Targum." While some Targums show some insight what they are is expansions, expositions of scripture. Sometimes they went way off the mark. When I asked my Pastor if if Mark being a Targum meant that he put words in the mouth of Jesus he had to to admit that I was right. What you have to ask yourself is if this is a position you want to take when defending the scriptures.

Here is what Sir Robert Anderson says about the Baptist's words there:

"This is not translation merely, it savours of exegesis. 'Who beareth the sin of the world' is what the Baptist said. His words were not a prophecy of what Christ would accomplish by His death, but a statement of what He was in His life. Mark the present tense, 'Who is bearing'. And while the word used in 1 Peter 2:24, and in kindred passages, is a sacrificial term, we have here an ordinary word for lifting and carrying burdens. When the Lord sighed in healing the deaf mute by the Sea of Galilee Mark 7:34, and when He groaned and wept at the grave of Lazarus, He took upon Himself, as it were, the infirmities and sorrows which He relieved, and made them His own" (Anderson, Types in Hebrews [Kregel Publications, 1978], 52).​

This is not translation merely, it savours of exegesis. sounds too much like "auras of penumbras" I think translation and exegesis should never stray very far from one another.

"Bearing" our afflictions, griefs and sufferings was indeed part of what Jesus did in His earthly ministry (Matthew 8:16-17) However, the word Matthew uses is, “ebastasenἐβάστασεν. It is taken from Isaiah 53:4
http://biblehub.com/greek/ebastasen_941.htm

The next verse is much more violent because the Messiah is suffering on the cross for SIN
Isaiah 53:5 reads as follows:

A. 5 But he was wounded
The Hebrew word chalal means “to bore through or pierce”) for our transgressions,

This depicts the nails being driven into His hands and feet.

B. he was bruised (Heb. daka : “to crush”) for our iniquities:

Christ was hit and beaten.

C. the chastisement ( musar “chastisement”) of our peace was upon him;

His punishment brought us peace with God.

D. and with his stripes (Heb. chabburah: a stripe or blow) we are healed.
This healing was for something more than physical healing since He had been doing that already. Rather this was healing of the breach between the human soul and God.

E. The condition of man for which the cross would be a remedy is sin All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;

F. Finally the substitutionary nature of His death is summarized
...and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The question is – did the pre-Pauline Church know these things? Apart from my frequent argument that Jesus had already explained the reasons for His suffering there is corraborating evidence. For example, when Philip heard the Ethiopian reading out of Isaiah 53 he was immediately able to tell the Eunuch that the LAMB being led to slaughter was Jesus. All that followed explained the exact nature of Christ's death - His innocence, His scourging, the piercing of his hands and feet when He was nailed to the cross, and finally His resurrection. All the events that had happened in Jerusalem were tied together into the prophesied plan of redemption. The Ethiopian, seeing the benefit this work had for him personally, became a Christian and requested baptism which meant that Philip had also explained the repentance and Baptism by which he could receive the forgiveness of sin. Not only did Philip know the purpose of the cross as revealed in Isaiah he was even able to use it in the work of evangelism – and this was a long time before Paul. Where had Philip learned all this? There is no evidence that he had experienced revelations from seeing the Third Heaven. No, his training had been at the Apostle's feet.

Next,you have attempted to weaken the impact of John the Baptist's words "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away using sources that define "bearing" as "offering up" However though this does apply to Jesus ministry of bearing grief and sickness, the word John the Baptist uses is airo (αἴρω) which according to Strong means "I raise, lift up, take away, remove. When it comes to SIN what is wanted most is not Christ bearing it with us but Him removing it. You would have done better sticking with the KJV "takes away"

Much was made of the fact that "takes away" (the sin of the world) is a present tense verb. Because of this it is assumed that it applies NOT to Jesus bearing the sins of mankind on the cross in the future but to His bearing people's sorrows and griefs in the (then) present. The problem with this view is that Jesus was not doing healing miracles at the time John made this proclamation. Not only that but the present tense is not always used exactly for the immediate moment. Koine Greek linguist A. T. Roberson has this to say about John 1:29:

The future work of the Lamb of God here described in present tense as in 1 John 1:7 about the blood of Christ. He is the Lamb of God for the world, not just for Jews. http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-1-29.html


In calling Jesus the Lamb the Baptist evokes many potent images. Here are some references from Judaism.

Gen 22:8 is an important passage in the background of the title Lamb of God as applied to Jesus. In Jewish thought this was held to be a supremely important sacrifice. G. Vermès stated: “For the Palestinian Jew, all lamb sacrifice, and especially the Passover lamb and the Tamid (perpetual) offering, was a memorial of the Akedah with its effects of deliverance, forgiveness of sin and messianic salvation” (Scripture and Tradition in Judaism [StPB], 225).

When I looked up the definition of akedah I found this

AKEDAH (ʿAqedah; Heb. הָדֵקֲע, lit. "binding (of Isaac)"), the Pentateuchal narrative (Gen. 22:1–19) describing God's command to *Abraham to offer *Isaac, the son of his old age, as a sacrifice. Obedient to the command, Abraham takes Isaac to the place of sacrifice and binds him (va-ya'akod, Gen. 22:9, a word found nowhere else in the Bible in the active, conjugative form) on the altar. The angel of the Lord then bids Abraham to stay his hand and a ram is offered in Isaac's stead. The Akedah became in Jewish thought the supreme example of self-sacrifice in obedience to God's will and the symbol of Jewish martyrdom throughout the ages. [/YELLOW]
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0001_0_00627.html

This is relevant to Christ's death on the cross. Abraham like God the Father, laid the wood on his only son's and led him up the hill to be sacrificed. According to the paradigm of MAD, however, none of this could have been known until Paul came along. John the Baptist HAD to have meant something else or simple not known what he was saying. However, as a prophet and the forerunner of the Messiah we would expect John to have some insight into Jesus' mission.
Many of the leaders of the Acts 2 community understood that Paul was the first to preach the 'gospel of grace." So if Paul was the first to prezch it then it is obvious that it wasn't preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost.

Which leaders in the Acts 2 community "understood that Paul was the first to preach the 'gospel of grace?"

In a Bible tract entitled Paul's Gospel Acts 2 dispensationalist William R. Newell wrote:


"The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the 'witnesses' (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resurrection--that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was...But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal 'the great body of doctrine for this age'...The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as follows...The fact and the Scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principle--that is, of Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God" (Newell, Paul's Gospel).​

The Apostles believed you had to not only believe in Christ but that faith was inseparable from surrender of the will and obedience to Him. This very basic teaching has through the distortion of certain teaching come to thought of as meritorious "works." This seems to be the concept of (antinomian) "grace" in MAD? This was known in the first several centuries to be the signature doctrine of the Gnostics who thought they had a deposit of divine essence which remained unchanged despite their decision to abide in any state of iniquity. "Gold immersed in mud remains unchanged" was the saying. Perhaps this is why MAD seeks to make all writings which suggest that we must remain faithful to the end applicable to Jews only.

After reading this Bible tract Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founding President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said:

"This is a great tract, a clear treatise on the truth of God for this age. The author was one of America's greatest Bible expositors. It glorifies the Savior as the author desired it to do. It should be distributed by hundreds of thousands" (Editor, Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1994, Volume 7:12).​

Today Dallas Theological Seminary is considered the leading Acts 2 dispensational seminary in the world, and the founding President of that seminary recognized the fact that the "gospel of grace" was not preached by anyone before Paul. Therefore that gospel was not preached on the Day of Pentecost.

The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, John F. Walvoord, wrote that "The gospel of Grace was given to Paul as a 'new' revelation" (Walvoord, "The Preincarnate Son of God", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct.-Dec. 1947, Vol. 104, # 416, p.422).

Occasionally I see profs and students from D.T.S. The next time I see one I will ask them what they think of the orthodoxy of MAD. What do you suppose they will say?
 
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