ECT Our triune God

meshak · Sep 19, 2013

Lon said:
For the most part, the problem is not 'having' a faulty idea, but rather 'proporting (teaching)' that idea. Paul says not many of us should be teacher, and for good reason. Whether such affects salvation or not is in God's hands. If you are just 'wrong' and open to input and correction, it's a good sign. You don't have to go to bible college but arguing with someone who has done so isn't the way to go either. If you have a false idea, you are not a false teacher until you 'teach' it and debate it.

You are still missing my point. You seem to be ignoring that Jesus does not emphasize in doctrines,rather, he tells us to be faithful to Him with our action.

Trinity churches condemn Jesus' servants over doctrines Jesus does not put much of value.

Jesus does not approve of lip servers. Jesus hates hypocrisy and they will not inherit God's kingdom.

Even if your theology is right, if you don't practice what Jesus teaches, you will not make it.

Basic principal of Christianity is about Jesus being Son of God and Savior of the world, and obeying everything what He teaches and commands, not about doctrine of trinity.

Lazy afternoon · Sep 19, 2013

Lon said:
He didn't say "Don't worship Muhammed or Joseph Smith" either. By the same token, if you were to do so, are you still a Christian? It is an important question.

"If" Jesus is made from your expectation rather than scripture, then he is little different than Joseph Smith or Mohammed. Such a man cannot save you.
You can be mistaken about Him, but should be reading scripture and not stopping with this very simple view that does not account for all of scripture as it portrays Christ. Deity, is the mark that separate Christ from Joseph Smiths and Muhammeds.

▲ I tried to make it/keep it simple for you▲

The Diety of Jesus is due to Him being Gods son, NOT because He is God as you claim.

It is that simple, but you reject it, because it has not been shown to you as it was to Peter.

LA

Lon · Sep 19, 2013

meshak said:
You are still missing my point. You seem to be ignoring that Jesus does not emphasize in doctrines,rather, he tells us to be faithful to Him with our action.

Trinity churches condemn Jesus' servants over doctrines Jesus does not put much of value.

This is an assumption. I think He put a great deal of importance on doctrine. See John 4:22 & 23

meshak said:
Jesus does not approve of lip servers. Jesus hates hypocrisy and they will not inherit God's kingdom.

Then I hope you are doing more than just typing on TOL, because that's all we are doing on here, using our lips (er...fingers).

meshak said:
Even if your theology is right, if you don't practice what Jesus teaches, you will not make it.

It doesn't happen. A Christian, a new creation, cannot help be produce fruits in keeping with righteousness.

meshak said:
Basic principal of Christianity is about Jesus being Son of God and Savior of the world, and obeying everything what He teaches and commands, not about doctrine of trinity.

Again, look at John 4:22 & 23. After, does doctrine 'seem' to be important to Him, to you? It does to me so I'm suggesting you include the importance yourself, in what you understand about Him.

oatmeal · Sep 19, 2013

Apple7 said:
No, derowr.

Neither of these individuals can even tell us what they think the Trinity is...they just reject it out-of-hand...this is what they have in common with you...ignorance.

Oatmeal took a stab at defining the Trinity - failed miserably - and now left the forum to review his error....likewise with Christnow,etc, etc...

Regardless, all of these individuals can at least put together a coherent sentence far above what you can do. You come across as being the hillbilly of the uni's.

Since you cannot define the trinity as a believer in it, the ball is in your court not mine.

Tell us what it is you believe.

Oh, and respect God enough to use words that He uses to define himself.

Or don't you believe that God is smart enough to define himself adequately?

If you have to use words like

trinity

triune

three in one

hypostatic union

God the son

etc.

then your theology is at best a wrong dividing of the scripture, II Timothy 2:15

More accurately, it is the foolish attempt to try to insert three in one pagan threeology and meology into truth or as a substitute for truth.

oatmeal

Lon · Sep 19, 2013

As a reminder, arians/unitarians are on my iggy and shouldn't be picking arguments here. There are (or were) over one hundred threads dedicated to that. This one is more of a reference thread than a place for debate to take place. The discussion w/i triune circles seems appropriate, in that such discussion has to take place between us when 'we' disagree. It shouldn't be seen as a 'free-for-all.' If you can 'discuss' in a reasonable manner, well and good but I'm not taking bait to start another fight and will discourage it in this thread, thank you.

meshak · Sep 19, 2013

Lon said:
This is an assumption. I think He put a great deal of importance on doctrine. See John 4:22 & 23

So you don't think being obedient to Jesus is not important?
Jesus obviously think it is;

this is what Jesus says:

If you love Me, keep My commandment. and some more coming up.

Then I hope you are doing more than just typing on TOL, because that's all we are doing on here, using our lips (er...fingers).

I am doing much more than that. I am informing the public that what they say in most church practice is not of Jesus, like killing enemy at war because Jesus commands us to "love your enemy". Informing the world with truth is not lip service.

It doesn't happen. A Christian, a new creation, cannot help be produce fruits in keeping with righteousness.

If you are a new creation you will not condemn Christians who are serving Jesus just because they don't agree with your doctrine.

Again, look at John 4:22 & 23. After, does doctrine 'seem' to be important to Him, to you? It does to me so I'm suggesting you include the importance yourself, in what you understand about Him.

It is not significant comparing to actually practice what Jesus teaches and commands.

Being faithful to Jesus is the most important in Christianity, without faithfulness to Him, there is no salvation.

meshak · Sep 19, 2013

Lon,

here is some more from Jesus:

John 14:21
◦New King James Version
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10
◦New King James Version
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Acts 15:24
◦New King James Version
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment—)

1 Corinthians 7:19
◦New King James Version
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

1 Timothy 6:14
◦New King James Version
that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

1 John 2:3
◦New King James Version
The Test of Knowing Him ] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:4
◦New King James Version
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
◦New King James Version
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:24
◦New King James Version
The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error ] Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:2
◦New King James Version
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
◦New King James Version
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 12:17
◦New King James Version
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
◦New King James Version
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And here is confirmation from Jesus of keeping Ten commandments as requirement.

Matthew 19:16-19
New International Version (NIV)
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’

Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

godrulz · Sep 19, 2013

Nang said:
:wazzup:

Do you deny being a "Oneness Pentecostalist" or at least sympathetic to their teachings?

He does not sound Oneness, but trinitarian with a bee in the bonnet about some philosophical nuances about trinitarianism.

godrulz · Sep 19, 2013

meshak said:
I don't worship any man. But Trinitarians worship their own man-made doctrines and their organization. Jesus did not say you need to believe in the trinity to be saved.

There is no where in the Bible Jesus teaches trinity to be saved.

Why you cannot see this simple reality?

Trinity churches Christianity' is Jesus-less.

that's why they should be called Trinitarians instead of Christians.

Ridiculous comments. If anything, Christian churches are so Christocentric that they need to also emphasize the Father and Holy Spirit (vs Jesus Only).

Nang · Sep 19, 2013

godrulz said:
He does not sound Oneness, but trinitarian with a bee in the bonnet about some philosophical nuances about trinitarianism.

NOT.

Be assured, this one is NOT a Trinitarian.

Nor a confessing, scriptural, orthodox Christian . . .

Lon · Sep 19, 2013

meshak said:
So you don't think being obedient to Jesus is not important?
Jesus obviously think it is;

Not what I said. I said a Christian will do so. Why? Because the Holy Spirit, living in a believer, prompts us. We new-naturedly want to.

Mesh, you saying "Obey!" is like saying to me "Breath!"
--> I think I'm already doing it and don't really need to be told.

Rather, and more importantly, you missed the point of the scriptures. Listen a moment:

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

Did you see that? Spirit and truth. Jesus is very much interested in doctrine. Another word for "doctrine" is truth. It may be heady or intellectual, but that's truth too.

meshak said:
If you are a new creation you will not condemn Christians who are serving Jesus just because they don't agree with your doctrine.

So it is okay to be Muslim to you then? If you say "no," do you know you are using doctrine (truth) to say so? Do you understand we cannot believe whatever 'we' want to believe, but rather what Christ Jesus want's us to believe? Don't you want to believe what Christ Jesus our Lord wants you to believe? What did He say to the woman again? That she did worship, but didn't know the truth? And that a time was coming when she had to both worship and know? Read Jesus yourself and see what He is saying to you. You don't need me for that.

meshak · Sep 20, 2013

Lon said:
Not what I said. I said a Christian will do so. Why? Because the Holy Spirit, living in a believer, prompts us. We new-naturedly want to.

The Holy Spirit is not in people who are not true to Jesus.

Mesh, you saying "Obey!" is like saying to me "Breath!"
--> I think I'm already doing it and don't really need to be told.

Jesus says to love your enemy. Why don't you tell your people it is not Christian thing to do to kill your enemy? You are acting like a teacher; tearchers have responsibility lead your flock, brother.

Rather, and more importantly, you missed the point of the scriptures. Listen a moment:

Did you see that? Spirit and truth. Jesus is very much interested in doctrine. Another word for "doctrine" is truth. It may be heady or intellectual, but that's truth too.

Yes, I saw it, you are splitting hair, brother. Jesus says knowledge puffs up. that words apply to you and PPS. You guys maybe impress people but Jesus is not impressed with puffed up knowledge.

So it is okay to be Muslim to you then? If you say "no," do you know you are using doctrine (truth) to say so? Do you understand we cannot believe whatever 'we' want to believe, but rather what Christ Jesus want's us to believe? Don't you want to believe what Christ Jesus our Lord wants you to believe? What did He say to the woman again? That she did worship, but didn't know the truth? And that a time was coming when she had to both worship and know? Read Jesus yourself and see what He is saying to you. You don't need me for that.

I don't argue about the doctrines for argue sake like most forum people are doing. It is meanness and vain. Your knolege will not lead anyone to lead people to salvation, faithfulness does.

Jesus explains how we should follow Him in simple and plain word that anyone can understand. Why do you make simple salvation so complicate?

Lon · Sep 20, 2013

meshak said:
The Holy Spirit is not in people who are not true to Jesus.

Doctrine "means" true. Jesus makes us 'true,' you can't get there in your flesh: 2 Corinthians 5:17

meshak said:
Jesus says to love your enemy. Why don't you tell your people it is not Christian thing to do to kill your enemy? You are acting like a teacher; tearchers have responsibility lead your flock, brother.

Did you know John the Baptist told "soldiers" to be satisfied with thier pay, not to 'quit that evil organization?' Look it up, it's important Mesh. Luke 3:14 Remember what Jesus said about worshipping what we know vs not worshipping in truth? John 4:22 & 23 Remember Him saying the day was coming and, in fact, is already here, when we must worship in spirit and truth and not just make things up along the way? We have to follow Jesus, He doesn't have to (an can't) follow us.

meshak said:
Yes, I saw it, you are splitting hair, brother. Jesus says knowledge puffs up. that words apply to you and PPS. You guys maybe impress people but Jesus is not impressed with puffed up knowledge.

Meshak, I didn't say it. Jesus said we must worship in both Spirit and Truth, I didn't (I mean I'm repeating Him...but...).

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

meshak said:
I don't argue about the doctrines for argue sake like most forum people are doing. It is meanness and vain. Your knolege will not lead anyone to lead people to salvation, faithfulness does.

Doctrine, again, means 'truth.' We argue truth because it is true and I believe, must do so. The scripture I gave says so. There are other scripture that tell you to keep doctrine too, but I was trying to keep this simple for right now, like you asked. The "truth" (doctrine) is, you have to know His "truth" (doctrine). He did not come to you so He could protect what you already believe. He said the Samaritan woman couldn't keep her own way of thinking, she had to come to worship in 'truth' (doctrine).

meshak said:
Jesus explains how we should follow Him in simple and plain word that anyone can understand. Why do you make simple salvation so complicate?

In my humble opinion, this is a cop-out to not believe what Jesus told the Samaritan woman. He told her the time had come to do 'both.' He told her the Samaritans were ignorant ("...you worship what you don't know..."). We can't be lazy and remain ignorant, or wrong. You ask why don't I listen to Jesus? I am. Why aren't you? What did Jesus tell your here in John 4? Spirit and truth (doctrine), right?

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

meshak · Sep 20, 2013

Lon said:
Doctrine "means" true. Jesus makes us 'true,' you can't get there in your flesh: 2 Corinthians 5:17

If you are truthful to Jesus. do you pretend who claim they are born again are born again?

Did you know John the Baptist told "soldiers" to be satisfied with thier pay, not to 'quit that evil organization?' Look it up, it's important Mesh. Luke 3:14 Remember what Jesus said about worshipping what we know vs not worshipping in truth? John 4:22 & 23 Remember Him saying the day was coming and, in fact, is already here, when we must worship in spirit and truth and not just make things up along the way? We have to follow Jesus, He doesn't have to (an can't) follow us.

So you dismiss Jesus' "love your enemy"?

Meshak, I didn't say it. Jesus said we must worship in both Spirit and Truth, I didn't (I mean I'm repeating Him...but...).

Of course but you seem to be abusing it.

Doctrine, again, means 'truth.' We argue truth because it is true and I believe, must do so. The scripture I gave says so. There are other scripture that tell you to keep doctrine too, but I was trying to keep this simple for right now, like you asked. The "truth" (doctrine) is, you have to know His "truth" (doctrine). He did not come to you so He could protect what you already believe. He said the Samaritan woman couldn't keep her own way of thinking, she had to come to worship in 'truth' (doctrine).

Read the above.

In my humble opinion, this is a cop-out to not believe what Jesus told the Samaritan woman. He told her the time had come to do 'both.' He told her the Samaritans were ignorant ("...you worship what you don't know..."). We can't be lazy and remain ignorant, or wrong. You ask why don't I listen to Jesus? I am. Why aren't you? What did Jesus tell your here in John 4? Spirit and truth (doctrine), right?

Your interpretation is out of context with many of Jesus' word.

blessings.

Lon · Sep 20, 2013

meshak said:
If you are truthful to Jesus. do you pretend who claim they are born again are born again?

Awkward. Realize this though: We can fight among each other without it meaning we lost or will loose our Salvation. I believe fighting a good thing, we just need to continue to learn to do it better. Why do I believe it a good thing? Proverbs 27:17 and 17:17. I'm glad when we stand up for what is 'right.' When we speak of doctrine, it means to stand up for what is good and right. Sure, we argue with one another over it, but I see that as a good thing, at least potentially if not always. We need to sharpen one another. I do try, however, to do so as gently as possible most of the time. I admit I need more patience with those who are hard-headed, especially as/if I see them as being stubbornly wrong and trying to say something is a truth that cannot possibly be. God has given us individual minds, but He has also given us to one another 1 Corinthians 12

meshak said:
So you dismiss Jesus' "love your enemy"?

No but you must prioritize. I am not a loving father if I do not protect my children. See Psalm 82:3 Isaiah 1:17 and James 1:27

meshak said:
Of course but you seem to be abusing it.

When have you personally, ever felt abused by me? :idunno:

meshak said:
Your interpretation is out of context with many of Jesus' word.

blessings.

You seem, to me, way too young in your faith to be trying to say that here. I don't think you have not been to a seminary. I'm not sure how many Sunday School classes you've attended regularly for any number of years. I'm not sure how many years you've read through your bible nor if you have even been through the whole book even one time, let alone multiple times that are needed for you to be able to say this. I'm not sure if you've been entrusted with teaching truth (doctrine) in any church.

You do not 'seem' like you have done any of these to me.

Besides, it is ironic that you are attempting to 'correct' me, doctrinally on a verse about doctrine being important.

meshak · Sep 20, 2013

Lon said:
Awkward. Realize this though: We can fight among each other without it meaning we lost or will loose our Salvation. I believe fighting a good thing, we just need to continue to learn to do it better. Why do I believe it a good thing? Proverbs 27:17 and 17:17. I'm glad when we stand up for what is 'right.' When we speak of doctrine, it means to stand up for what is good and right. Sure, we argue with one another over it, but I see that as a good thing, at least potentially if not always. We need to sharpen one another. I do try, however, to do so as gently as possible most of the time. I admit I need more patience with those who are hard-headed, especially as/if I see them as being stubbornly wrong and trying to say something is a truth that cannot possibly be. God has given us individual minds, but He has also given us to one another 1 Corinthians 12

But you are making the difference of understanding making it salvation issue which Jesus does not do so.

No but you must prioritize. I am not a loving father if I do not protect my children. See Psalm 82:3 Isaiah 1:17 and James 1:27

You are still misapplying it.

When have you personally, ever felt abused by me? :idunno:

I am talking about abusing the scripture, you should know the difference.

You seem, to me, way too young in your faith to be trying to say that here. I don't think you have not been to a seminary. I'm not sure how many Sunday School classes you've attended regularly for any number of years. I'm not sure how many years you've read through your bible nor if you have even been through the whole book even one time, let alone multiple times that are needed for you to be able to say this. I'm not sure if you've been entrusted with teaching truth (doctrine) in any church.

I don't waste time trying to figure out what is true meaning or understanding of the Scripture. It is just vein. We have more important things to do than arguing who is right or wrong. We have Jesus' simple and clear teachings that we can practice without trying to figure out not so clear verses.

It is vein because so many so called "true Christians" are now showing ungodly fruit. You guys don't even understand Jesus' command of "love your enemy".

You do not 'seem' like you have done any of these to me.

excuse me?

Krsto · Sep 20, 2013

meshak said:
I don't waste time trying to figure out what is true meaning or understanding of the Scripture. It is just vein.

Yet you come on a theology board trying to correct other people's understanding of theology, such as how to apply the verses you quote in an effort to prove pro-military is unbiblical.

You don' see a problem here?

Lazy afternoon · Sep 20, 2013

Krsto said:
Yet you come on a theology board trying to correct other people's understanding of theology, such as how to apply the verses you quote in an effort to prove pro-military is unbiblical.

You don' see a problem here?

When some people see a great error then it can unbalance their whole thinking.

The military becomes a bad thing when it is controlled by bad people who use it to protect their own lusts for wealth.

God has set the boundaries of the nations and they ought respect that.

That does not mean they can not help others justly, but the truth is that the military of the west has been used for evil purposes and if the Christian has signed and declared an oath that they may have no choice but to do everything the military wants of them then they should not join.

The Christian should not worship the nation or the power of it, but they are taught to do so when they are very young and think it is acceptable to God to do so because most everyone does it.

LA

Krsto · Sep 20, 2013

Lazy afternoon said:
When some people see a great error then it can unbalance their whole thinking.

The military becomes a bad thing when it is controlled by bad people who use it to protect their own lusts for wealth.

God has set the boundaries of the nations and they ought respect that.

That does not mean they can not help others justly, but the truth is that the military of the west has been used for evil purposes and if the Christian has signed and declared an oath that they may have no choice but to do everything the military wants of them then they should not join.

The Christian should not worship the nation or the power of it, but they are taught to do so when they are very young and think it is acceptable to God to do so because most everyone does it.

LA

You think like me.

Scary.

lain:

PneumaPsucheSoma · Sep 21, 2013

Krsto said:
Let me come at it from a different angle. Are they co-equal? If so, how so?

I'm not sure I want to mimic that terminology. Quite simply, the Logos was with God and was God. That Logos was... the Logos; not an additional "person" (hypostasis) of three. A hypostasis isn't a "person".

It can be (and is) adjectivally "personal" (and outwardly revealed by a prosopon), but a hypostasis is a substance or subsistence. Literally... the underlying foundational substantial objective reality of existence. God is ONE of those.

And that hypostasis is two-fold, both of which proceeded forth/proceedeth (John 8:42 and John 15:26) from God. Being co-terminous with the Logos, and the Logos being Divine; the Logos became flesh as the Son, the Son therefore being Divine.

Is that equality? Not in the sense of the Subordinationist/Economic debate for either side. In context to the entire exegesis I would need to present, yes. The Rhema (content/subject matter) of the Logos (wise and intelligent pondered reason and outward expression OF the Rhema content) is the entirety of God's own Divinity.

God spoke forth the entire and unabridged Divine substance of Himself in and as a man; the prosopon ("person") of the hypostasis ("substance") of His ousia ("essence"). God as a man, distinct from Himself. His Logos become flesh. The key is in understanding the Rhema. Nobody comprehends the Rhema.

For the DyohypoTrin doctrine, they adopted a Philo-esque Logos that was already a "person". That doctrine also presents the ex- and ek- processions as internal rather than external. That's egregious and fallacious. The Logos wasn't an eternally pre-existent "person" as an individuated hypostasis. The express image OF a hypostasis (Hebrews 1:3) is a prosopon, not another hypostasis (with yet a third also manufactured by erroneous inference).

It's better to frame it up relative to the point of Cosmogony to reveal the singular missing truth from ALL the various historical God-models that each is compensating for by different formulations.

ECT Our triune God

BANNED

LIFETIME MEMBER

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

BANNED

BANNED

Well-known member

Well-known member

TOL Subscriber

Well-known member

BANNED

Well-known member

BANNED

Well-known member

BANNED

Well-known member

LIFETIME MEMBER

Well-known member

TOL Subscriber