Jesus is God !

freelight · Sep 14, 2013

more reminders.......

more reminders.......

beloved57 said:
If the Lord Jesus Christ was not also God,as a Man, we face a serious difficulty in realizing His suitableness to vicariously substitute in the place of perhaps millions of others who were indebted to God's Infinite Law, for none but an Infinite Person as God, who is exalted over all Law, and who personally owes no obedience to God as all creatures do, could qualify.

This is assuming that anyone has to vicariously die in the stead of anyone else, let alone that 'God' would come down in the form of a man (Jesus) to do such a thing, and that it could somehow be efficacious for the whole of mankind, whether they accepted the 'atonement' or not. As shared earlier, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Jesus is 'God', beyond just a religious belief, assumption, scriptural interpretation, preferential doctrine. Don't forget the law of responsibility as well, that all souls are responsible for their own sins and salvation. The law of compensation (karma) holds wherever any kind of conditional action takes place in the realm of space-time. This law if the perfect equa-balance of justice/mercy......while grace undergirds all laws towards the fulfillment of divine will, except where free will has the power to over-ride in the case of the individual.

All other created beings do owe a debt of their own personal obedience to God, and so would not qualify to perform obedience in the place and stead of a number of men that no man can number, satisfying for them all , all of God's Infinite Law and Justice !

If Jesus was a true man, he would be indebted to God's law like any other, regardless if he was born sinless or not. This second commentary still is based on the presupposition of a 'god-man' having to 'atone' for the sins of the world, being the only one that could do such. These are doctrinal propositions which work only in such a 'belief-system'.

My previous posts still hold here.

pj

Princely · Sep 14, 2013

beloved57 said:
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

What Jesus was saying is there is One who is good and that One is God.
So in order to be good then a man must become One as Jesus said His true followers would be. That is how to be good. There is only one way to be good and perfect and that is to become One as Jesus and the Father are One.

Therefore, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

beloved57 · Sep 14, 2013

freelight

If Jesus was a true man, he would be indebted to God's law like any other,

As a True Man He was indebted to God's Law for the sins of those men He died for. That He could not be however if He was not also God. Thats my point.

This second commentary still is based on the presupposition of a 'god-man' having to 'atone' for the sins of the world, being the only one that could do such.

If there was any other way, The Father would have told Jesus when Jesus asked Mark 14:34-36

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Omniskeptical · Sep 14, 2013

beloved57 said:
Go over my points in the post and explain each of them to see how they are lacking.

Do it, yourself.

keypurr · Sep 15, 2013

beloved57 said:
keypurr

Thats already answered. See Phil 2:8-10, He was elevated as a Man.

Then you do not believe the scripture. Isa 6:1-3, I just witnessed to that. The Most High and The Lord of Hosts are the same Being, you do not believe that ?

Yes, that has not been denied by me, but you have denied the scripture witness that Jesus is also The LORD of Hosts !

You are a unbeliever.

Neither verse say Jesus Christ is LORD (most high God)

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NKJV) 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

This tells it like it is friend. Christ is the exact IMAGE of the father. But he is not the father. He was given the power of creation, he is a god but not the most high God.

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

Note that GOD exalted him to Lord of All creation.

keypurr · Sep 15, 2013

beloved57 said:
If the Lord Jesus Christ was not also God,as a Man, we face a serious difficulty in realizing His suitableness to vicariously substitute in the place of perhaps millions of others who were indebted to God's Infinite Law, for none but an Infinite Person as God, who is exalted over all Law, and who personally owes no obedience to God as all creatures do, could qualify. All other created beings do owe a debt of their own personal obedience to God, and so would not qualify to perform obedience in the place and stead of a number of men that no man can number, satisfying for them all , all of God's Infinite Law and Justice !

Consider that the man Jesus was filled with the spiritual son of God (Christ). God's true son, the one at the creation, is spirit not man. He went into the body (Jesus) that God prepard for him. Christ spoke THROUGH Jesus. Christ is a form of god nd the man Jesus was sinless. That made a PERFECT Lamb of God. Christ died, God can not die for God is spirit not man.

beloved57 · Sep 15, 2013

keypurr said:
Consider that the man Jesus was filled with the spiritual son of God (Christ). God's true son, the one at the creation, is spirit not man. He went into the body (Jesus) that God prepard for him. Christ spoke THROUGH Jesus. Christ is a form of god nd the man Jesus was sinless. That made a PERFECT Lamb of God. Christ died, God can not die for God is spirit not man.

If Jesus was not God, He was not qualified to die for men and pay the sin debts of millions of men who owed an infinite debt to God, also if He was not God, He Himself owed personal obedience to God, and would not be qualified to perform obedience that fulfilled the law for millions of others in their stead.

beloved57 · Sep 15, 2013

key

Neither verse say Jesus Christ is LORD (most high God)

Neither verse says He is not. However Isa 6:1-3 indicates that Jesus Christ is The Lord of Hosts. Do you deny the Yhvh of Hosts and the Most High God are the same Being ?

beloved57 · Sep 21, 2013

The Second Coming indicates Jesus is Jehovah Judge!

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, The Eternal Logos, for it was prophesied in the sacred scriptures of the OT that He would come to Judge the World Ps 96:12-13

12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice

13 Before the Lord[Jehovah]: for he[Jehovah] cometh, for he[Jehovah] cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Notice who it is that is said to be coming, Jehovah ! And what His business will be,To Judge the Earth or World with Righteousness !

Yet the Lord cometh, that's Christ Notice Jude 1:14-15

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

See how Enoch[way back then] was given Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Rev 19:11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Who is this ?

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

It's Jesus Christ, the God Man !

This Truth poses a real problem to all those who who refuse to bow to scripture truth and revelation, and do not believe that the Man Christ Jesus is also Jehovah God, because it plainly states here in fulfillment of Ps 96:12-13 this about that Man Acts 17:31

31 Because he[God] hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Also Ps 98:9

9 Before the Lord [Yĕhovah]; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

This Jehovah who cometh to Judge the Earth, is the Man Christ Jesus, Acts 17:31, for He is God Man !

beloved57 · Sep 22, 2013

I maketh all things New !

Rev 21:5

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We know that Jesus is God, because it is He who maketh all things New ! The Man Jesus Christ is also God because He is the One that sat upon the Throne and saith Rev 21:5-6

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

The One that does this " I make all things new" is Identified in Vs 6 as :

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Now where did we read this before and to whom did it apply ?

Rev 1:8,11

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And lots not overlook Rev 22:12-13

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus Christ is both The Almighty God, and Man, God Man ! Who maketh all things New !

keypurr · Sep 23, 2013

beloved57 said:
If Jesus was not God, He was not qualified to die for men and pay the sin debts of millions of men who owed an infinite debt to God, also if He was not God, He Himself owed personal obedience to God, and would not be qualified to perform obedience that fulfilled the law for millions of others in their stead.

Sorry I took s long to get back to you on this friend but I have been a little under the weather.

I believe that the spirit that was in Jesus is Christ and Christ is a form of god but not the true God. Christ is a copy of God , a spirit. This spirit became man by dwelling in Jesus. Jesus is the flesh son of God and is the body that God prepared to hold his spiritual son Christ.

So he is more than qualified to be the Lamb of God.

keypurr · Sep 23, 2013

beloved57 said:
key

Neither verse says He is not. However Isa 6:1-3 indicates that Jesus Christ is The Lord of Hosts. Do you deny the Yhvh of Hosts and the Most High God are the same Being ?

I think that they may be two beings friend. But I have not really done an in depth study on Yhvh of Hosts terms. I see only ONE TRUE GOD, the Father. He is the most high God. Jesus Christ is called the son of the most high God in the NT.

keypurr · Sep 23, 2013

beloved57 said:
Rev 21:5

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We know that Jesus is God, because it is He who maketh all things New ! The Man Jesus Christ is also God because He is the One that sat upon the Throne and saith Rev 21:5-6

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

The One that does this " I make all things new" is Identified in Vs 6 as :

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Now where did we read this before and to whom did it apply ?

Rev 1:8,11

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And lots not overlook Rev 22:12-13

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus Christ is both The Almighty God, and Man, God Man ! Who maketh all things New !

It is a big mistake to assume that the Lord is the most high God.

We have one God and one Lord.

All power that Christ has was GIVEN to him by his God.
So I do not believe that Christ is the almighty when he is in subjection to his God. He is the express image of God, he has been given the fullness of the father yet he can die. God created all things THRUGH his Christ. But Jesus was just a man until Christ entered him at his baptism. (Acts 10:38)

keypurr · Sep 23, 2013

beloved57 said:
Rev 21:5

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We know that Jesus is God, because it is He who maketh all things New ! The Man Jesus Christ is also God because He is the One that sat upon the Throne and saith Rev 21:5-6

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

The One that does this " I make all things new" is Identified in Vs 6 as :

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Now where did we read this before and to whom did it apply ?

Rev 1:8,11

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And lots not overlook Rev 22:12-13

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus Christ is both The Almighty God, and Man, God Man ! Who maketh all things New !

Keep in mind B57 that BOTH God and his son are considered to be Alpha and Omega for they were both at the beginning of creation. However Christ is the IMAGE of his God so at one time God had to be alone alone. Christ is a creation that was given deity. (Col 1, Heb 1)

freelight · Sep 23, 2013

Only One God IS

Only One God IS

keypurr said:
I think that they may be two beings friend. But I have not really done an in depth study on Yhvh of Hosts terms. I see only ONE TRUE GOD, the Father. He is the most high God. Jesus Christ is called the son of the most high God in the NT.

As you know,....this debate will be a hamster wheel, unless certain preconceptions and beliefs are forgiven. On a relational level, there is only One Supreme Being, and its offspring.....out from which proceeds a hierarchal order which includes the whole of creation. All comes from The One, and returns to The One. That One is the Universal Father. Jesus is a representation, expression and manifestation of 'God', and so are we....in a relational context. Jesus calls us to recognize his divine Sonship, and embrace our own in him(that realization)....as a community.

pj

beloved57 · Sep 24, 2013

And His servants shall serve him !

Rev 22:1-3

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

We know Jesus Christ the Lamb,is God because His servants shall serve Him !

Once we carefully read this text of scripture, It is clear that John identifies Two upon the Throne of God and of the Lamb, but notice that it says following, and His [Singular] servants shall serve Him[singular] !

Shall serve who ? The shall serve God who is the Lamb, the Two are One. This is a picture of Eternity and of those who shall serve Him, The God Lamb forever.

Lets look at Daniel 7:13-14

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him[The Son of Man] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Particularly Vs 14, who here is given a Kingdom, that all shall serve Him for Everlasting ! Why its the Lamb, the Son of Man !

So the His and Him of Rev 22 :3 is God, the Lamb and the Father = God !

Though the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here, we do Believe He is God too !

beloved57 · Sep 24, 2013

kp

Keep in mind B57 that BOTH God and his son are considered to be Alpha and Omega for they were both at the beginning of creation.

Thats my point, for there is only One Alpha and Omega.

When Jesus says it, John uses the definite Article, indicating there is only One. It reads in both Rev 1:8,11

Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὁ παντοκράτωρ

Here even the definite Article goes before the Almighty, and its only One !

Vs 11

λεγούσης Ἐγώ ἐιμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, Ὃ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος καὶ ὁ βλέπεις γράψον εἰς βιβλίον καὶ πέμψον ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν Ἀσίᾳ, εἰς Ἕφεσον καὶ εἰς Σμύρναν καὶ εἰς Πέργαμον καὶ εἰς Θυάτειρα καὶ εἰς Σάρδεις καὶ εἰς Φιλαδέλφειαν καὶ εἰς Λαοδίκειαν

Again, the definite Article, meaning the one and Only Alpha and Omega and First and Last !

Squeaky · Sep 24, 2013

beloved57 said:
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

Now if Jesus by this is not insinuating that He is God, then the alternative is that He was not good, seeing He just said only ONE, not Two, but ONLY ONE is good.

Now, if Jesus was not good, being that He was not the Only One Good God, then His commanding him, the young ruler, in order to be perfect, that he must go sell all his possessions, then give to the poor, and follow Him; Such an commandment exposed that the young man loved his possessions above God, which was a violation of the very first commandment, now if Jesus was not God, then the young mans refusal to obey and follow Jesus, could not be a proper standard to gauge his Love to God !

For there could not have been nothing amiss about not making such a great sacrifice as that Jesus told him, and then following Him if the One speaking was not the One God, who Only was good !

I said
Jesus said the Father is the only true God. Are you disputing Jesus?

John 17:1-3

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

Paul said for us Christians there is one God the Father. Are you disputing Paul?
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

MichaelCadry · Sep 25, 2013

Dear Squeaky,

Now here I must agree with freelight in his message. Remember when David said, "And the Lord said to my Lord..." Now this is because he meant And the Lord God said to my Lord Jesus. That's exactly what was meant by David.

Sit thou on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. And so shall the Lord God do this. God is not far away. He is in the room with you and next to your face and heart.

Does wonders for me!

Much Love and God's Best For You,

MichaelCadry

beloved57 · Oct 7, 2013

He is the Righteous Judge !

The Lord Jesus Christ is God because He is the Righteous Judge Paul mentions here 2 Tim 4:8

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

In the greek it reads, the Lord the Righteous Judge ! The definite article before Lord and before Righteous Judge means He is the One and Only Judge of the Righteous.

Now the OT scriptures says Ecc 3:17

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Paul is one of the Righteous, and God shall Judge the Righteous, and Paul looks to Christ to do that at His Appearing !

Paul knew that Christ is God !

Jesus is God !

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