Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

God's Truth

New member
Why do they want to believe this?
They all claim that they believe the Bible, but that goes out the window when I mention that the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Now "Death" no longer means death, but they insist that "death" means eternal life in hell being tortured. Death doesn't mean eternal life, no matter how much they want to believe that it does.

Why do they want to believe something so terrible, that isn't even true?

You should be more careful with your false accusations about me.

You say we do not believe the Bible because death no longer means death, but you are only mocking Jesus, for Jesus calls people who are living dead!

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.

Here is another scripture where Jesus says the living is dead.

Luke 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
 

Timotheos

New member
Mr. Godstruth, I am finished with you.

Jesus is allowed to use figures of speech without that changing the very meanings of the words he uses. And you know good and well that the Prodigal never was dead in that parable. I believe that you will say anything to justify your faith in Hell.

I will not respond to anything else you post.
 

God's Truth

New member
Being destroyed simply does not mean the same thing as being tortured, no matter how much you want it to mean that. I'm simply using the regular definitions of words with the usual meanings. I think that if you believe that being destroyed is the same thing as being tortured, you need to prove that somehow.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/destroy

A SYNONYM for destroy is: DAMAGE, DEFACE, IMPAIR, MAR, MUTILATE, RUIN, SABOTAGE, SUPPRESS, TEAR DOWN, WRECK,

ANTONYMS for destroy is: IMPROVE, REPAIR.



According to the synonyms, why can't destroy be ongoing torture?
 

God's Truth

New member
Mr. Godstruth, I am finished with you.

Jesus is allowed to use figures of speech without that changing the very meanings of the words he uses. And you know good and well that the Prodigal never was dead in that parable. I believe that you will say anything to justify your faith in Hell.

I will not respond to anything else you post.

You judged yourself correctly.

You will defend a lie with a lie.

The Prodigal son was not physically dead, and you did not bring up the other scripture where Jesus calls those who are living 'dead'.
 

God's Truth

New member
This is a list of scriptures for you all to meditate on. These scriptures are many that show us we have spirits that do live apart from the body and have thinking and understanding consciousness.

Some “Christians” falsely believe in “soul sleep.” The leaders of these Christians have invented that term. They believe that the spirit inside humans cannot live outside the body, and as such ceases to live on. They believe there is no consciousness of the spirit apart from the body. These people believe in what I call a doctrine of death.

Our Spirits Live

Yes, life continues after the death of the body.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Did you read that? Jesus says they shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces, and that they do not enter. If men cannot enter heaven, then why does Jesus say what he says?

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:

Mark 9:2-6

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

Acts 23:8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)

Did you read that? The Pharisees acknowledge that there are angels and spirits. If there is no such thing as spirits living outside of our bodies, then how is it that the Pharisees believe it and were not rebuked for believing it? From the scripture, we get that the Pharisees are commended for the belief in angels and spirits.

Read Mark 12:24-27 what Jesus replied to the Sadducees when they came to Jesus with a question about the resurrection. Read in Luke where Jesus says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Mark 12:24-27 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage: they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising---have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:34-38 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Jesus says God is the God of the living. You say they are dead. I believe God and not you.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus says he will give us water welling up to eternal life. You want me to believe that this water wells up to our death, and then begins again thousands of years later at the resurrection.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Jesus says to work for food that ENDURES TO eternal life. We do not work for food that endures to death in the ground then later an eternal life. How is it enduring if a person's life stops?

John 6:44-51
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Did you hear that? Those in the Old Testament ate the manna and died, but Jesus gives us bread that we may eat and not die.

John 6:53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Jesus says If a man eats his flesh and drinks his blood REMAINS in him, and he in us.

John 8:48-59

The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 12:26”Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."

This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father.

John 14:1-6. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father.

Jesus Christ who told us… “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going. I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:1, 2, 3, 4, 6)

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for them and that he will come back and takes them to be with him. We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen. See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. In addition, we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to his heavenly kingdom. See the following...

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 14:16-18

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This scripture Jesus says that he shall give another Comforter that may abide with them for ever, note the word for ever.

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of it."

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This scripture is in the passages where Jesus speaks to his disciples, before the guards come to arrest and have Jesus crucified. In addition, where is Jesus going? Jesus is going to heaven, of course!

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cane did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ. Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The dogma which states you will burn in hell for mere unbelief is very sick indeed, imo!
If you don't believe in God then you're a fool, according to God...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
 

Timotheos

New member
The dogma which states you will burn in hell for mere unbelief is very sick indeed, imo!

The gospel message is that you can have eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ. They've changed it to include eternal life for everyone, some in torment and some not in torment. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. There is no threat there, just a promise to give eternal life to those who believe in him.

God doesn't want anyone to perish, he wants everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Unfortunately, the natural law of the world is that the wages of sin is death. This is how the world is. Sin results in death, repentance results in forgiveness of sin which results in eternal life. There is only eternal life in Christ, and nowhere else. There is no eternal life in hell being tortured by God (or those he designates).
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
There is no eternal life in hell being tortured by God (or those he designates).
You're right, since every second being tormented by flames in eternal darkness with no companionship whatsoever isn't life. The Lake of Fire will torment those cast into it for eternity, though, that much is made completely clear and irrevocable by Scripture.
 

doloresistere

New member
You're right, since every second being tormented by flames in eternal darkness with no companionship whatsoever isn't life. The Lake of Fire will torment those cast into it for eternity, though, that much is made completely clear and irrevocable by Scripture.

You cannot be tormented if you are not alive.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
You cannot be tormented if you are not alive.
You cannot be judged unless you're raised to judgment.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

How are the lost judged, unless they are raised from their death?

Paul said the dead were raised incorruptible.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
There is not the slightest evidence there is an afterlife, let alone a heaven and hell.
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 

justme50

New member
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Those quotes from the Bible don't constitute any sort of evidence, just the thoughts of the authors, so don't count for anything!
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
what is sown, is reaped........

what is sown, is reaped........

You are wrong. I know what karma means. You want to protect your evil beliefs by trying to make it sound different than it is.

The law of compensation is a universal law,...you'll have to deal with that fact before assuming a full knowledge thereof. We've covered this. Recognizing 'karma' (the law of cause/effect; action/re-action; consequences, etc.) is not an 'evil belief',...but seeing that each person is responsible for his own choices, and suffers only in proportion to that degree of 'sin' which he commits, and is responsible to atone for his own sins by repentance, reparation, reformation, etc. There is the 'law of responsibility' involved here, which is wholly just and compensatory, taught clearly in the scriptures and agreeable to reason.

What would be insane and evil is punishing souls forever in a lake of fire to no end, purpose or resolve. Thats an 'evil belief'....which furthermore defeats the will of LOVE.

Karma and reincarnation are beliefs that the mentally disabled are being punished for being violent mean people in former lives.

Thats an typical assumption that shows you're more interested in discounting the principle by knee-jerk reactions rather than understanding all the mechanics of karma. You believe your 'preconceived' idea of the principle, which limits learning more about it in the greater context of 'actions and consequences'. In any case,...the law of compensation continues to work as long as there is ACTION (choices being acted on, cause/effect continuum). Mental illnesses or deformaties can be caused by a variety of factors, either from the parents, some actions in past lives associations, and other genetic/environmental factors. The law still has its effects - "whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap". Besides being born in this imperfect matterial world,...one cannot deny that there are karmic associations for much if not all we experience in this life, and that is just the natural law of karma at work. Its as universal a law as gravity is. Sin has consequences, and there is individual responsiblity with free will, and the opportunity to evolve, progress and perfect oneself by that same law..since it is 'educational' and 'corrective' in nature.

An evil religion rejects Jesus and follows things taught by demons. I hope you repent to Jesus for following falseness and defending it with lies.

I dont reject Jesus....never have. I have a wonderful 'christian' background, but am not limited to it, since TRUTH is Universal.


ECT has problems.



pj
 

God's Truth

New member
Thats an typical assumption that shows you're more interested in discounting the principle by knee-jerk reactions rather than understanding all the mechanics of karma. You believe your 'preconceived' idea of the principle, which limits learning more about it in the greater context of 'actions and consequences'.


Are you deaf and blind? I have explained it to you twice now that someone from another country who believes in karma and reincarnation told me about the beliefs. IT IS HIS NATURAL RELIGION. It is NOT my assumption and and my preconceived ideas distorted by westerners, as you said. What do you do just copy and paste the same replies repeatedly.
 

Timotheos

New member
You're right, since every second being tormented by flames in eternal darkness with no companionship whatsoever isn't life. The Lake of Fire will torment those cast into it for eternity, though, that much is made completely clear and irrevocable by Scripture.

I wish you would just stick to what the Bible says.

The lake of fire is the second death.
 

Timotheos

New member
There is not the slightest evidence there is an afterlife, let alone a heaven and hell.

There wouldn't be, would there? We haven't yet been resurrected to eternal life. Resurrection to eternal life is a promise from God that we believe by faith.

Blessings to you!
 
Top