Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

1Way · Jan 20, 2004

godrulz - So what of the arguments that have been placed before you, , , about miracles generally causing faith or unbelief, do you have ANY contextually relevant comments? Or was what I put forth "somehow" not worth even a mention? From my perspective, I presented an accurate view from scripture. Do you have any scriptural grounds to argue against what I have offered thus far?

It is a cosmic leap to go from miracles do not tend to foster faith in God to miracles happen today.

(Philosophical when you should be biblical)
godrulz, you constantly focus on man's viewpoint to compare and consider what is right. In Jesus' day, that would probably mean that you would be like one of the mainstream sects or religious camps, like the Pharisees or Sadducees or Essines (spl?) or whatever, but even if you were more non-denom, it would be YOU who would have been saying, gee, I wonder if the Pharisees have it right or the Sadducees about this Jesus thing. Although the Essines have some interesting views, the scribes I tend to hang with the most tend to be more influenced by bla bla bla of some manmade philosophy, yet the Sadducees seem to corner the market on bla bla bla of some manmade philosophy. The words of life are found in the BIBLE, not philosophy books!

The overwhelming majority of your ponderings would have Christians everywhere move on from the bible into more "advanced" areas of research.

The bible is sufficient, it excepts you to have one mind and one faith and that you be a part of a united body of believers. Stop the insanity of following the herd which represents a thousand different ways. It's salt yourself with God's word, not man's, your life is directed by God and His word, not mans, the way of salvation is by God's single word, not mans, eternal truth comes from God, not man, treasure the things of God, not the things of man. Honor, respect, glorify, understand, read, have your joy, in God and his word, not man. I keep looking for you to respond to biblical teachings, but when you examine biblical teachings, your most common response is something like, this is too dispensational, or, do you mean to infer an irrevocable metaphysical change

as opposed to an ongoing give and take relationship, and the common baptist response seems wanting. That is you, comparing man with man about the things of God, and I know you should know better. Stop worrying (so much) about what everyone else thinks, start dealing with eternal truth as A workMAN (singular tense, not mob rule historical view tense) unashamed rightly divided.

If anything I have said is not grounded tightly in scripture, then please dismiss it as dubious when it comes to godly advice/thinking. Your joy may be complete, your understanding full even of the mysteries of God, but that will only happen "God's" way and by "His word". Don't be one of the ever seeking never finding, the truth is right there in front of you, if you will only accept and honor it.

:think:

freelight · Jan 20, 2004

miracles never cease........

miracles never cease........

Hello 1Way,

I have read some of the thread and the last page to get a gist of your position. I have not read Mr. Enyarts works despite his rumored fame with some on TOL.

So it is being proposed that 'miracles do not foster faith'. Your commentary on Mr. Enyarts view is notable. I can see his point..........as per scriptural example. However.....I am sure that some miracles then and now as transpiring in peoples lives have been faith-fostering events...which have contributed at least some measure of good...which in turn may have inspired faith in the individual and others. Of course...... a miracle is something that transpires and is made evident by ones senses .....and after the fact needs no faith to be. In such cases........these miracles are wonderful relievers for the most part - and at that may inspire some thanksgiving....then life goes back to normal......until the need for another miracles comes along - but with or without miracles.....we walk by faith, not by sight. So...miracles are wonderful...and surely God is alive and able to do miracles in our midst! True faith in the Living God hopes in the total substance of Deity....and draws the powers of the Invisible as being evidencial. God is omnipotent.....and even so...we with the Spirit of God and the Name of Christ....can go forth and be used of God in signs, wonders and miracles - these things are natural fruits of walking in the Spirit - tokens of the anointing.

Surely.......while these wonders happen in our midst......is it faith that we preach, live and teach among the assembly. Faith will ever be the essential in our relationship with the Father. Faith may inspire and initiate miracles in our midst....but the additional gifts from above.....are only the physical manifestation of faith sometimes granted by divine providence or spiritual laws. Still.....manifestations or not.....we abide in the faith of God......no matter the conditions.

I am not sure if Enyart holds that miracles have ceased.....but I do not hold to such. Of course special miracles may have been ushered at pivotal times early in the dispensation of grace, - Jesus life and ministry, the apostles ministry, the outpourring of the Spirit.........but there is never to be a ceasing of Gods immanent and dynamic presence in our midst. Still the glory of the Spirit of Christ dwells in His body......and in Christ the Spirit is given without measure. Faith can assess the impossible and the realm of the miraculous being a catalyst for such wonderful works of the Lord. Such is the nature of faith and its dynamics. We cannot limit God by our astute theological minds...when the dynamic of the Spirit is by far greater. The Spirit of truth must lead the Way.......in all things as we progress in grace and ascend to greater heights in Christ.

Indeed faith shall ever be essential. Miracles which God can and does surely bring to pass today may transpire thru faith or apart from it........but these are hardly our focus. These things happens by Gods grace...and certain laws relative to faith. But faith is ever the essential, the substancial. We ever walk by it......in the midst of miracles or not. To this view I agree.

In our estimation of Gods power relative to faith....let us not forget that the letter kills....and the Spirit gives life.

paul

www.freelightexpress.com

1Way · Jan 21, 2004

I may be wrong, but I think you misunderstand God's intended message about the letter kills. You are probably thinking that means in gernal terms, paying too much attention to God's word instead of God via His spirit. That is not what it means.

2 Corinthians 3
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

The letter is contextually developed in reference to the law of God. Like at the garden God placed two trees, one represents God and the other His law, God's people need God not His law for the focus of our faith and guidance. It is a more difficult issue dealing with when or if miracles have stopped for a while. But I hope you would agree that God's word is the ultimate specific guide for these sorts of matters, not what some person feels God leading them to believe otherwise. In fact, scripture teaches that we are supposed to have the full assurance of understanding about God and Jesus Christ, even the mysteries of them. Wouldn't you agree?

freelight · Jan 21, 2004

thru-out, the Spirit gives life...........

thru-out, the Spirit gives life...........

Originally posted by 1Way

I may be wrong, but I think you misunderstand God's intended message about the letter kills. You are probably thinking that means in gernal terms, paying too much attention to God's word instead of God via His spirit. That is not what it means.

)============ Hi 1Way,.............interestingly you have chosen to bypass my former content...and address only my last sentence. While Paul may mean the letter of the Law in his address.......it also covers all letters/words/writings....that are not quickened by the Spirit. Yes, Gods word (bible - a collection of books) when taken as mere letters without Spirit-inspiration, impartation and enlightenment......are as dead...and therefore cannot give life. Only the Spirit of God can....for the Spirit is Life. I just thought end with that thought because it is important. Jesus told his disciples to be led and guided by the Spirit of truth. One can cling to dead words or even scripture reading without the Spirit. In that case....it is more or less a dead exercise....however intellectually stimulating. So it stands......the letter kills....the Spirit gives Life.

Originally posted by 1Way

The letter is contextually developed in reference to the law of God. Like at the garden God placed two trees, one represents God and the other His law, God's people need God not His law for the focus of our faith and guidance.

)========== I am not sure I agree percisely....but see your comparison with the trees (we are actually covering the issue of the trees in another post here at TOL). I would say that honor of God correlates to honor of His laws...and vice versa. God still has laws....and laws rule the universe and the consciousness of Man. When we abide in God.......we naturally abide in His Law or laws. We fulfill the Law, the Law...being Love.

Originally posted by 1Way

It is a more difficult issue dealing with when or if miracles have stopped for a while. But I hope you would agree that God's word is the ultimate specific guide for these sorts of matters, not what some person feels God leading them to believe otherwise. In fact, scripture teaches that we are supposed to have the full assurance of understanding about God and Jesus Christ, even the mysteries of them. Wouldn't you agree?

)============= indeed.......scripture serves as a guide. Scriptures however are limited in some respects in their guidance....as some portions were written according to the culture, needs, situations of their times. We must always interpret inspired writings with the freshness of the Spirit and progressive revelation/light.....for the Spirit of God is ever quickening to us the Heart & Soul of the Father. Still I say...the Spirit of truth is to lead one......and such leading will not violate scriptural principle or spiritual law/ethic.

Indeed.......we are to be stewards of the mysteries......but to be such oftimes takes a revolutionary approach...that can carry one beyond comfortable, man-made orthodox bounderies, traditions, ideologies. 'Where the Spirit of the Lord is....there is liberty.' I do agree that the Spirit may lead us into all truth - into all mysteries.....ever unveiling light.

paul

godrulz · Jan 21, 2004

Scripture is primary. It is self-evident that God would not do miracles in the past or present if they would only lead to condemnation and a hardening of the heart. Miracles are an expression of the love and goodness of God. He is glorified and we are edified.

John Wimber's Vineyard (with all its flaws and quirks) established a biblical basis for 'power evangelism', healing, miracles. They saw these things because they did not philosophically rationalize and compartamentalize Scripture.

As a Pentecostal, it is clear in Scripture that there is no reason to say the supernatural was a negative thing or ceased. If I ever sound logical or philosophical, it is an objection to errors in thinking about Scripture that are philosophical in nature. There is a Christian philosophy that every Bible interpreter operates from. There is also a pagan philosophy that is erroneous.

Scripture simply does not explicitly teach that God is now confined to naturalistic methods because of a dispensation or 'unbelief' response. Logically, if miracles lead to unbelief, so does preaching the Gospel! Miracles and preaching can also lead to faith and life (both/and, not either/or).

I have listed verses that support the gifts of the Spirit and healing for the post-resurrection of Christ Church. This is not philosophical, it is the Word.

Delmar · Jan 21, 2004

Originally posted by godrulz

Scripture is primary. It is self-evident that God would not do miracles in the past or present if they would only lead to condemnation and a hardening of the heart. Miracles are an expression of the love and goodness of God. He is glorified and we are edified.

Did God harden Pharohs heart? How if not by a miracle?

1Way · Jan 23, 2004

freelight - You said

)============ Hi 1Way,.............interestingly you have chosen to bypass my former content...and address only my last sentence. While Paul may mean the letter of the Law in his address.......it also covers all letters/words/writings....that are not quickened by the Spirit. Yes, Gods word (bible - a collection of books) when taken as mere letters without Spirit-inspiration, impartation and enlightenment......are as dead...and therefore cannot give life. Only the Spirit of God can....for the Spirit is Life. I just thought end with that thought because it is important.

I try to let nominal subjective or dubious issues alone I call it redeeming the time, you call it interesting and treat it with some contempt.

As to your comment on the scripture that I tried to correct you on, sorry, but if God can not convince you of the error of your ways, neither can I, please reconsider God on this issue.

What exactly were you thinking when you began defending yourself against the teaching from scripture? That you know better than God? God's word is written in letters that as you say, which were given life from God, but then you contrasted the ability of God's word AGAINST God! That is tremendously bad and is a perfect contradiction. God says, God I say, God says that if people do not get saved, it's because they have no room for the truth in them! God interchanges Himself with the truth on an almost constant basis throughout scripture. In fact, His NAME is The Truth, already. Give me a break, contrasting God against His word, you can not have God/Spirit and not His truth, you always have to have them both or you honestly have neither of them.

God said by His word that the gospel (message) is the power unto salvation, which is another word for eternal "life".

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

There is no contrast between God and His word that you portray. If man will reject God's word, then He is rejecting God, if man rejects God then He is also rejecting His word, there is no difference.

You do on to say

Jesus told his disciples to be led and guided by the Spirit of truth. One can cling to dead words or even scripture reading without the Spirit. In that case....it is more or less a dead exercise....however intellectually stimulating. So it stands......the letter kills....the Spirit gives Life.

Not true, except where you quoted scripture, that part is true and denies your view. The spirit of truth is like saying that when God speaks, we expect Him to speak the truth, same with His written word too. So if you believe that God is true, then if you want to remain consistent, then you have to grant that His word is true also, and you have grant truth and authority and honor and respect just as much to His word as you do to Him. You can't be honest and true and good and righteous and contradict any of that with your words or other actions. Your argument is self refuting, all you have to do is switch the objects of spirit and letters to see how your own argument refutes your view. Here, since you did not think of this before I am pointing this out, I'll demonstrate it for you.

Jesus told his disciples to be led and guided by the Spirit of truth. One can cling to a dead faith in God or even scripture reading without the Spirit of truth. In that case....it is more or less a dead exercise....however emotionally or personally stimulating. So it stands......the Spirit without truth kills....the Spirit gives Life.

You deftly go on to say

)========== I am not sure I agree precisely....but see your comparison with the trees (we are actually covering the issue of the trees in another post here at TOL). I would say that honor of God correlates to honor of His laws...and vice versa. God still has laws....and laws rule the universe and the consciousness of Man. When we abide in God.......we naturally abide in His Law or laws. We fulfill the Law, the Law...being Love.

AND I HAD JUST QUOTED TO YOU THE CONTEXT OF WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT HIS LAW, consider again, or in your case, consider beyond a vague superficial inaccurate understanding, the following.

2 Corinthians 3
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

God says here that the ministry of the law of God (engraved in stone, written in ink, etc.) was a ministry of death and condemnation, and that the ministry of the Spirt is way way more glorious. But in your eyes, they should be the same.

And remember, the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the wicked (is the law really for you and you for honoring the law like you do God?), it's direct effect is death and condemnation, but can lead men to escape it's wrath whenever they repent and turn to God for forgiveness, so it's indirect effect is to point men to God or face hell. To suggest that grace believers should put God on the same level of honor as the law, especially in this dispensation of grace, is contradictory nonsense.

Seek and prefer a ministry of life and righteousness, not death and condemnation. And if you don't like my presentation, then read for comprehension 2Cor 3:3-9 while remembering that God probably meant what He said there.

However, you also said

Still I say...the Spirit of truth is to lead one......and such leading will not violate scriptural principle or spiritual law/ethic.

which is my view in a nutshell, that God and the word of God never contradict nor conflict and the authority and truthfulness of each are the same, and it can be no other way. Otherwise you are not worshiping God in truth "and" in spirit, you can "never" ditch either and have the other, "NEVER". Don't contrast against the two, they are always in harmony and unity.

Lastly, you are wrong to argue about the law of God as being that which kills by saying that it also means anything else other than the law. If you want to speak about honoring anything that is not godly and good, then just say that such a thing is not godly or not good or whatever, don't say, the spirit gives life but the letter kills like as though any focus off of God is inferred by that teaching, it is not, it is describing God's law constantly and without exception.

I have God's word and I have yours. Since yours does not line up with scripture, ,,, you can guess the rest from here.

Now, lets see if you can apply what you preach. If you love and honor God, and since you know He is truthful and good, since He plainly used the teaching of "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life" as a reference of contrast between His law and Himself, it is wrong for you to go against God on this issue who teaches that the letter is a reference to His law and not anything else, yet you take the phrase the letter kills to also mean anything that is not given life by God, i.e. when you read the newspaper that is written by atheists and moral morons, about the score of some sporting event, that will minister death and condemnation to you, or if you read a dictionary or look up a phone number in a phone book, or when you do a calculation on a calculator and read the answer, all such communications which were not quickened by God, will produce or minister death and condemnation to you the recipient. Can you say opps, I overstepped the wisdom of God and His word, sorry I'm wrong and God is right.

Don't exceed the wisdom of scripture, trust me

, your not that wise. "The letter" means "the law of God", it does not mean whatever else you want to read into it in order to make your dubious statement more righteous. You tried to debunk my view on miracles with a mild retort that ended up being an inaccurate understanding of what God actually taught. Live and learn and respect God more next time.

Two main points, God and His word have exactly no conflicting or higher and lower truth value, if God is true, then so are His words. Secondly, don't overstep and possibly correct scripture. If you want to say something other than "the letter kills", then use different words to represent that, don't misrepresent God by twisting His words out of context. "The letter kills" strictly means "God's law kills", not otherwise. Oh, one more, next time, I'd emphasize the "comprehension" part of "reading for comprehension", doing so may produce many excellent dividends for you for the rest of your life!

And may the truth set you free, :doh: there God goes again, messing up by equating Himself with truth. Where were you when God was messing all this up?!? :darwinsm:

1Way · Jan 23, 2004

deardelmer - :thumb: Looking forward to godrulz responses.

Here's my added comment.

godrulz - You said

Scripture is primary. It is self-evident that God would not do miracles in the past or present if they would only lead to condemnation and a hardening of the heart. Miracles are an expression of the love and goodness of God. He is glorified and we are edified.

So then why did God express the gospel message and make it the way of salvation since it mostly leads to condemnation and hardening of hearts? If "always producing condemnation and hardening of heats" is a bad thing, then so is doing that most of the time, right? And most people go to hell so most reject the gospel unto salvation, so by your reasoning, why did God even express the gospel unto salvation when doing so would have such terrible results? See the fallacy of your thinking? Do right, and risk the consequences, don't consider, ya, but perhaps many people will not respond well. Do right and risk the consequences brother, don't worry about the historically accepted views = majority view, orthodox view, just find out what is right, and then do it.

Secondly, no one is saying that miracles can only produce a bad effect, you are distorting the issue somewhat. When someone already has faith in God, more evidence seen or unseen of God is grounds for validating our faith in Him, and such things may be edifying, that is why when Christians study science we often are brilliantly reminded of the brilliance of God for example, so lets not carry this criticism too far. Miracles themselves do not tend to foster faith, but to those who already have faith, any evidence of God at work would only reinforce the faith that you "already" have. Creating faith is not what miracles tend to do.

Thirdly, miracles are not as you said, unqualified or without exception, an expression of the love and goodness of God. Or do you consider genocide and the slaughter of entire nations including men women and children, an expression of God's love? How about His justice instead? And how about the fact that the overwhelming majority of the time, miracles were done to do neither show His love nor His justice, but to validate His spokes person/people as being from God. Miracles do not glorify God per say, and they do not edify per say, God says that it is en evil and perverse generation that seeks a sign (=miracle), and that even raising the dead will not make men believe. Your ideas contradict God's, but then again, if you don't rightly understanding the (entire) context, you are prone to such errors. Don't remain in so much contextual violence, conform, not conflict with God's word.

deardelmer is doing a great job exposing a weakness in your presupposition. Looking forward to your serious consideration of his provocative question.

freelight · Jan 24, 2004

The Spirit reigns......

The Spirit reigns......

My comments are interspersed within the entire commentary/quote below - each crow is accompanied by a single paragraph in response -

Originally posted by 1Way

I try to let nominal subjective or dubious issues alone I call it redeeming the time, you call it interesting and treat it with some contempt.

As to your comment on the scripture that I tried to correct you on, sorry, but if God can not convince you of the error of your ways, neither can I, please reconsider God on this issue.

What exactly were you thinking when you began defending yourself against the teaching from scripture? That you know better than God? God's word is written in letters that as you say, which were given life from God, but then you contrasted the ability of God's word AGAINST God! That is tremendously bad and is a perfect contradiction. God says, God I say, God says that if people do not get saved, it's because they have no room for the truth in them! God interchanges Himself with the truth on an almost constant basis throughout scripture. In fact, His NAME is The Truth, already. Give me a break, contrasting God against His word, you can not have God/Spirit and not His truth, you always have to have them both or you honestly have neither of them.

:crow: )=========Hello 1Way,................you have begun with misunderstanding...and continue on with it thru-out your post.

God said by His word that the gospel (message) is the power unto salvation, which is another word for eternal "life". There is no contrast between God and His word that you portray. If man will reject God's word, then He is rejecting God, if man rejects God then He is also rejecting His word, there is no difference.

You do on to say Not true, except where you quoted scripture, that part is true and denies your view. The spirit of truth is like saying that when God speaks, we expect Him to speak the truth, same with His written word too. So if you believe that God is true, then if you want to remain consistent, then you have to grant that His word is true also, and you have grant truth and authority and honor and respect just as much to His word as you do to Him. You can't be honest and true and good and righteous and contradict any of that with your words or other actions. Your argument is self refuting, all you have to do is switch the objects of spirit and letters to see how your own argument refutes your view. Here, since you did not think of this before I am pointing this out, I'll demonstrate it for you.

quote:
Jesus told his disciples to be led and guided by the Spirit of truth. One can cling to a dead faith in God or even scripture reading without the Spirit of truth. In that case....it is more or less a dead exercise....however emotionally or personally stimulating. So it stands......the Spirit without truth kills....the Spirit gives Life.

:crow: )============= Your example above is a twisting of my original words and therefore cannot be oficially endorsed. My original thesis remains.

You deftly go on to say AND I HAD JUST QUOTED TO YOU THE CONTEXT OF WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT HIS LAW, consider again, or in your case, consider beyond a vague superficial inaccurate understanding, the following. God says here that the ministry of the law of God (engraved in stone, written in ink, etc.) was a ministry of death and condemnation, and that the ministry of the Spirt is way way more glorious. But in your eyes, they should be the same.

And remember, the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the wicked (is the law really for you and you for honoring the law like you do God?), it's direct effect is death and condemnation, but can lead men to escape it's wrath whenever they repent and turn to God for forgiveness, so it's indirect effect is to point men to God or face hell. To suggest that grace believers should put God on the same level of honor as the law, especially in this dispensation of grace, is contradictory nonsense.

Seek and prefer a ministry of life and righteousness, not death and condemnation. And if you don't like my presentation, then read for comprehension 2Cor 3:3-9 while remembering that God probably meant what He said there.

:crow: )============ It appears your misunderstanding continues. God is lawful......His laws are eternal. The Spirit of God allows us to obey, follow the laws of God - the laws of the Spirit, the laws of Life. Even Paul whose letters you champion as if what he speaks is actually God speaking.....speaks of the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus....as operative. Jesus teaches if one is to enter into Life.......let him observe and keep the Law. Pauls contrastive, illustrative language of the law being a ministry of death....is dead letters - on stone or paper - it can also refer to other letter forms or religious rote. The emphasis is that true life and vitality is wrought thru the ministry of the Spirit of the living God - the SPIRIT IS LIFE. Words in and of themselves cannot save or impart life.....apart from the dynamic of Spirit. Spirit is not only LIFE...but TRUTH. Therefore Jesus says the Spirit of truth...shall lead you into All Truth.

However, you also said which is my view in a nutshell, that God and the word of God never contradict nor conflict and the authority and truthfulness of each are the same, and it can be no other way. Otherwise you are not worshiping God in truth "and" in spirit, you can "never" ditch either and have the other, "NEVER". Don't contrast against the two, they are always in harmony and unity.

:crow: )============= indeed,........if words are inspired by the Spirit.....then they cannot contradict the Spirit....for they are in accord - from one source. We dont follow words though - or letters for that matter. Words, letters, books serve to guide our soul to the dimensions where we can open our understanding to the Spirit of God for enlightenment and impartation of Life.

Lastly, you are wrong to argue about the law of God as being that which kills by saying that it also means anything else other than the law. If you want to speak about honoring anything that is not godly and good, then just say that such a thing is not godly or not good or whatever, don't say, the spirit gives life but the letter kills like as though any focus off of God is inferred by that teaching, it is not, it is describing God's law constantly and without exception.

I have God's word and I have yours. Since yours does not line up with scripture, ,,, you can guess the rest from here.

Now, lets see if you can apply what you preach. If you love and honor God, and since you know He is truthful and good, since He plainly used the teaching of "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life" as a reference of contrast between His law and Himself, it is wrong for you to go against God on this issue who teaches that the letter is a reference to His law and not anything else, yet you take the phrase the letter kills to also mean anything that is not given life by God, i.e. when you read the newspaper that is written by atheists and moral morons, about the score of some sporting event, that will minister death and condemnation to you, or if you read a dictionary or look up a phone number in a phone book, or when you do a calculation on a calculator and read the answer, all such communications which were not quickened by God, will produce or minister death and condemnation to you the recipient. Can you say opps, I overstepped the wisdom of God and His word, sorry I'm wrong and God is right.

Don't exceed the wisdom of scripture, trust me , your not that wise. "The letter" means "the law of God", it does not mean whatever else you want to read into it in order to make your dubious statement more righteous. You tried to debunk my view on miracles with a mild retort that ended up being an inaccurate understanding of what God actually taught. Live and learn and respect God more next time.

:crow: )=========== what I have written stands. Let the reader discern.

Two main points, God and His word have exactly no conflicting or higher and lower truth value, if God is true, then so are His words. Secondly, don't overstep and possibly correct scripture. If you want to say something other than "the letter kills", then use different words to represent that, don't misrepresent God by twisting 'His words' out of context.

:crow: )========== 'His words'? I would'nt call Paul God.

"The letter kills" strictly means "God's law kills", not otherwise. Oh, one more, next time, I'd emphasize the "comprehension" part of "reading for comprehension", doing so may produce many excellent dividends for you for the rest of your life!

:crow: )============= well of course....the context of Pauls speech....about the 'letter' is primarily speaking of the laws of Moses - the principle is what I am espousing - that the law apart from the Spirit kills. The Spirit of the living God is vital and necessary.....for Life. THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE. The SPIRIT....being ministered to hearts...written within.....God putting His LAW(s) into mens hearts...and quickening them by His Spirit......is the giving of Life. Gods Law, ethic has not been abandoned, taken away or destroyed - it has been established.

And may the truth set you free, :doh: there God goes again, messing up by equating Himself with truth. Where were you when God was messing all this up?!? :darwinsm:

:crow: )============ true,....God is Spirit, Spirit is truth; Spirit is Life. Logically....words spoken and inspired by God.....are spirit-ual, truth consisting and life-giving.

Again....we repeat for those who have ears to hear......and eyes to see - THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

paul

godrulz · Jan 24, 2004

1way:

Justice and wrath flow out of the love of God and His holiness.

The problem is not the Gospel or miracles, which are inherently good; the problem is man, and his hard heart and unbelief.

The wicked generation seeks signs with the wrong motive and a heart that will not respond intelligently to the evidence. We need to seek the Giver, not the gift. Again, this is not an argument against the merits of the gospel or miracles, but a rebuke of man's blindness and selfishness.

1Way · Jan 24, 2004

godrulz - Good point about a bad attitude is not a good thing, but I disagree with the teaching you carefully slipped in there.

You said

The wicked generation seeks signs with the wrong motive and a heart that will not respond intelligently to the evidence.

I agree that the problem is with man and not God and His miracles, but we are not talking about having a good or bad attitude about these things, we are talking about the tendency of faith or more unbelief when man experiences a miracle and a resurrection of the dead.

I don't know where you got the idea that the teaching about the wicked generation seeks signs is about a bad attitude and not the fact that miraculous signs do not tend to foster faith, other than from your manmade PRESUPPOSITIONS, but it's not accurate to scripture, other than the limited yet accurate observation that ANY unfaithful response to God represents a bad motivation or an unyielding heart. ANY unfaithful response, ANY. But that is NOT what this teaching about a wicked generation is teaching, it's just as God said, that it is wicked to seek after signs especially if you consider the fact that all the miracles in the bible loudly proclaim that they do NOT tend to foster/create faith.

(Considering the 1) wicked gen seeking signs and the 2) unbelief from a resurrection teachings.)
And don't you see the irony and exceedingly wild understatement that God is brilliantly using here? Even if I raise "a" man from the dead, they still will not believe, a wicked and perverse generation seeks "a" sign, come on already, don't you see the dramatic parallels that is going on? Jesus Christ is the most infamous sign giver if there ever was one! No one has ever produced more signs and miracles authenticating Himself on an almost constant basis within His somewhat short 3 year earthly ministry! And consider "the" focal point of all humanity, the most important event that EVER took place, is the death burial and self-resurrection of Jesus Christ! He spoke of miraculous signs as not causing faith, and even raising "a" man from the dead will not cause people to believe, as though His entire ministry did not (and would not) already scream these facts on a constant basis!!! God says without ambiguity only disparaging things saying, they will not believe, and it is evil and wicked to seek such things, as to the likelihood that miracles and even resurrections may cause faith.

You may not "like" God's wisdom and understanding in these things, and you may wish to overlook Christ's life and ministry and THE single most important event EVER, but instead, you should take a few deep breaths, examine the absolute truth over these issues, and humble yourself and your faith to conform to the truth of these matters.

I believe if Jesus heard your retort that the problem was not that they were seeking a sign and would not believe even for a resurrection, but that they were just seeking a sign with the wrong motivation and they were without faith even if a man rose from the dead because of a wrong motivation, He would harshly rebuke you for thinking that you know better than He, and that those two teachings, which are as clear as day, pale in contrast to everything that Jesus did, and the overwhelming majority of the people who experienced these things, hated God. Don't you see, Jesus if the most important person ever, yet He did not even lift up Himself when attacking people for seeking "a" sign, and for unbelief even if "a" man was raised from the dead, because Jesus did the most and best signs possible and He resurrected Himself don'tcha know, and the world still hated God in response. So again I remind you that your idea that God should not have done (whatever) miracles if it tends to produce so much unbelief goes against scripture in so many ways.

Accept, don't reject, the truth!

Don't undermine what Christ did in His three year ministry and death and resurrection, the MOST LOVING AND CARING AND MIRACULOUS EVENTS EVER mostly caused hardening of hearts and unbelief in God.

I hope that you learn to see your own subjective presuppositions.

1Way · Jan 24, 2004

No your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your...

No your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your wrong, no your...

freelight - What I have written stands. Let the reader discern.

The amount of subjectivity and counterpoint unresponsiveness you contribute represents an impasse. You can not just claim away the things you do, your lack of refutation is constant but your claims predominate, while my arguments refuting yours remain in tact, and with little exception no concrete effort has been made to dismantle them, you mostly just pretend like they have not destroyed your view by a faithful conforming to God's word. Willful ignorance is an iron clad case, you can not win an argument with stupid, it's just not possible. Don't play the claim game of contextual ignorance of the truth of a matter, deal upright with the truth and respond apologetically instead.

Are you ignorant, just can't deal with what has been set before you as contrary to scripture, ok, remain that way then. Scripture wins, the truth prevails. Until your ready to address my arguments and refutations in any sort of meaningful (point counterpoint) way, sorry for the time wasted.

godrulz · Jan 24, 2004

Why does 1way always dogmatically assert that his views are always right, and everyone else is stupid, ignorant, and foolish?

The tendency to always want to be right and assume everyone else is wrong is pathological (I wrestle with this myself).

freelight · Jan 24, 2004

liberty of the Spirit.......

liberty of the Spirit.......

Originally posted by godrulz

Why does 1way always dogmatically assert that his views are always right, and everyone else is stupid, ignorant, and foolish?

The tendency to always want to be right and assume everyone else is wrong is pathological (I wrestle with this myself).

)=========== Hello godrulz,.............the responses presented by 1Way speak for themselves. He will not see the spiritual truths or perspectives shared....but inverts them and reinterprets them within his own world system of dogmatic interpretation...according to his version of understanding...passing such off as 'truth'.

Well....the tone of his posts so far....are pious, self elevating...and serve his own religious views.

For those who cannot see the essential truth that THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.....then what can be said about them? Instead they will resort to intellectual trifles...and straining at gnats in the meantime oblivious to the obvious truths as presented by their fellows.

Those who do not abide in the SPIRIT....shall be more or less bound by their intellectual paradigms - for 'where the Spirit of the Lord is....there is liberty'.

It is wonderful to know that know....in the Spirit of the Lord....I AM free.

peace,

paul

1Way · Jan 25, 2004

Thats right. Lash out at me, while my testimony stands on solid ground. Who am I to please men rather than God? Or are judgments against me the way the judgment should flow.

Freelight - Excuse me, but we did not disagree about the Spirit giving life bit, we disagreed about what "the letter kills" means. You ,,, ,,, person.

godrulz · Jan 25, 2004

It is not so much what you say, but how you say it. It comes across as a thinly veiled arrogance. I understand that Enyart's style is sometimes bombastic and cutting. This is inappropriate when dealing with fellow believers over controversial, non-essential issues.

I am all for being passionate for truth and against error, but even Jesus commended before He rebuked (Rev. 2;3). The exhortation is to speak the truth in love (I Cor. 13= this involves patience, kindness, humility, understanding...it is not proud, etc.). Give respect to earn respect (I am preaching to myself too). Put downs come across as childish. Deal with adults like adults. We do not need to be brow beaten. Life is hard enough. There are other less intellectual boards that demonstrate love and grace despite disagreement. We have different personalities, but this is no excuse to live in the flesh, rather than the spirit.

Knowledge is more potent if combined with wise character.

Please do not punch me in the gut?

:angel:

freelight · Jan 25, 2004

breath of life.....

breath of life.....

Originally posted by 1Way

Freelight - Excuse me, but we did not disagree about the Spirit giving life bit, we disagreed about what "the letter kills" means. You ,,, ,,, person.

)=========== Hi 1Way,..........understood. It should be becoming obvious that I hold to a more metaphysically broad understanding of certain concepts found in scripture and other inspired writings....which I share freely - I realize sometimes others come from different perspectives and this is fine - its all about exploration and sharing these understandings with one another.

I share that the letter is death only when it has no spirit-life vitality. I have read the word 'letter' as being not only the Law(s) of Moses....but any written or inscribed words which are intended to be laws(principles) of God to man. Assuming these laws are truly inspired principles......they are only 'living' when they are activated in the heart of man by the living Spirit. The Spirit grants illumination, knowledge and Life. For instance the primary 10 commandments - these are eternal principles....and become life-sustaining principles when quickened and made alive in the heart and soul of Man. As disciples of the Christ...this is important and vital.....to abide in His quickening Spirit.

The new covenant is the transfer of the laws of God from tablets of stone...to hearts of flesh - where God writes his laws in our inward parts - these are enlivened and lived thru us...by the Spirits inspiration and power. When we walk in the Spirit....we fulfil the LAW! We abide in the Life, Love, Light and Power of the Living ONE. As we are perfected in Love....and walk in the Spirit.....we abide and live righteously within the laws of God...the laws of Life....the laws of the Spirit. Christ in us...enables us to fulfill the requirements of righteousness....as we fulfill the LAW of Christ...thru the ministry of bearing one anothers burdens.....Loving one another as Christ loves us. This kind of at-one-ment...comes from loving service and righteous action....mediated thru grace. It is doing the Fathers will.

There are the penalties of breaking these primary laws (as espoused in the 10 )...which is sin. It is only in the transgressing of the Laws where there is death. The laws remain and such principles are as eternal as God is eternal - these laws govern all of life and death - all states/conditions of being. The new covenant is a transfer of the law from static to dynamic....as ministered by the Spirt. The laws of God are eternal. Therefore in the true spiritual sense......it is true that by living the laws of God....one has Life. This principle is thru-out the scriptures. One lives these laws and does no sin.....only by abiding in the Spirit of God....who inspires one to live lawfully according to divine principle. Of course it is only God who can live out His own laws in us......as the Spirit inspires our thoughts and actions. This is the inner dynamic of the law...working within us to live righteously. Thru this process of sanctification......we are becoming more and more perfected and sinless. This is the process of becoming more Godlike.....attaining to laws of perfection and eternal progress.

paul

godrulz · Jan 25, 2004

I am more comfortable becoming Christ-like in moral character, rather than God-like in metaphysics (nature) like the Mormons teach. God is God and we are creatures in His moral and personal image.

freelight · Jan 25, 2004

meta-bytes.....

meta-bytes.....

Originally posted by godrulz

I am more comfortable becoming Christ-like in moral character, rather than God-like in metaphysics (nature) like the Mormons teach. God is God and we are creatures in His moral and personal image.

)========== Hi GR,.................yes....I know your perspectives....as we have shared ours in the past. I uphold a kind of metaphysics...which is a sharing of divine nature - of course the moral character aspects are a natrual offspring of our Christ-like condition - we share in His divine Life. You also know I do not hold to the classical lds view of godhood....but tout my own brand of metaphysics...nonetheless

Consider that when we put on immortality.....this immortality is derived from God - it is a substance of divinity - Gods own Immortality. God alone has immortality......but we will put on this divine-nature-substance....and become incorruptible - we will share of His essence.

Does this make us God? - of course not. God will always be God. And we will always have this wonderful endowment..which is a part of our nature....as a divine grant-generation of the Spirit. We will be one with God....even as Christ is one with God - again...this may be on a lesser degree of harmonization or Deity-likeness....but we will have immortality! God-reality and divine glory will be all the more real to us.......and we will have a sharing in the divine LIFE.....as immortal.

We shall put on immortality.

paul

godrulz · Jan 25, 2004

We are in the image of God and have a spirit that will endure forever. We are everlasting (beginning, no end), whereas God is from everlasting to everlasting (eternal). If we do not maintain a metaphysical distinction between the uncreated Creator and His creation, we open the door to pantheism and other heresies.

Blessings as you travel the road of your spiritual journey to know and love Him.

Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

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