Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

Bob himself stated: "Miracles foster unbelief." That's absolute nonsense. The miracle of the new birth fosters belief. Scripture recounts the strengthening of the church when the lost is converted. Furthermore...one has to believe in a miracle --the resurrection of Jesus to experience salvation.

Due to Christ's greatest miracle--raising from the dead--we find justification--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Originally posted by Lucky

I think that's a good idea. I've seen several attempts from you to try to debate this with him. But I haven't seen any response from this so-called "Poster of the Year." As willing as his sheep are to defend him, it would be nice to hear from the man himself. :up:

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:chuckle:

Re: Re: Jesus said "the word is truth"

Re: Re: Jesus said "the word is truth"

Originally posted by Berean Todd

Hey, idiot, that shows how much you know the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ right there. Try this one on for size.

John 17:17 [size=huge]Sanctify them in the truth; Your Word is truth.[/size]

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This is Christ Jesus's Prayer to God the Father. Yes, in the Case of God the Father -- His Logos is Truth.

Now, what is your point? Do you mean to refute me that 'Word' indeed does, in some moronic way, mean 'scripture', or even that Jesus ever said His own verbalizations were 'Words of Truth' -- an assertion only a liar needs to make -- which is why Paul practically wore out the phrase.

Re: Re: Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

Re: Re: Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

Originally posted by Freak

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.



According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.

So what miracles would you like to keep and which ones would you like to throw out?

New birth?
Healing of the broken heart?
Physical healing?
Deliverance from demons?
Opening closed wombs?

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Paul wrote 14 books without once quoting Jesus.

Paul invoking Jesus to further his own agenda seems more in the order of the way Zionists invoke God, and the Political Right Wing invoke Religion -- jaded and cynical ploys to gain popular confidence. Even as a young child who read a chapter of the Bible every night, I was struck by the apparent sleaviness of Paul. There had never been two more different beings on this Earth -- Christ and Paul. An eleven-year-old could see it.

Paul had no miracles. He did freak some poor old man out in Cypress and the guy had a stroke. He was leader of a Jewish Community who made inquiries into Christ, and Paul's reception of him almost killed him. That is Paul's big 'miracle'.

No, miracles must be measured in Vatican terms -- Providential and Inexplicable. I see that Protestants want to now count 'feeling good in sin' to be one of their miracles. Well, your 'feeling good in sin' is not a Miracle of God, but a consolation of Satan. Satan is giving you a reward for your labors in his behalf.

There may have been some miracles connected to Paul. Often Scourges of God -- those given Satanic Powers in order to Test the World -- are given Protection until their Destiny is fulfilled. Thus the door of the Jail falls open so that Paul can be allowed to continue with his temptations to evil. History if full of the Miraculous Survival of Extraordinary Evil. George Washington's cloak after the Battle of Brandywine had seven or eight bullet holes. Napoleon Bonaparte stood on the bridge of Arcola while not another French Soldier in a hundred was not instantly felled by the continuous fusillade. In the Old Testament it is said that God uses Sin to punish the guilty. So it was that God gave a certain protection to Paul's program of Anti-semitism, where he was able to stir up so much hate and reaction in the Roman Empire and Judah, that the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. became inevitable. Then there was the canonization and institutionalization of Paul, whereby death and destruction could be periodically unleashed anytime in history just by citing a few quotes behind a resurrected satanic doctrine.

"The Plot" has much interesting or helpful information. It should not be the standard or 'acid test' of orthodoxy or fellowship. Some of its premises and conclusions are suspect.

The supernatural God has not sent His Church out against the supernatural enemy with carnal weapons. The Holy Spirit continues the works of Jesus today through His church with manifestations of power, gifts, healings, etc. He is not dead, but an anti-charismatic theology is.

God is glorified and people are edified and the enemy is nullified.

Originally posted by godrulz

"The Plot" has much interesting or helpful information. It should not be the standard or 'acid test' of orthodoxy or fellowship. Some of its premises and conclusions are suspect.

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For people like 1Way The Plot is the standard by which they test fellowship. Others on TOL have seen this reality.

The Holy Spirit continues the works of Jesus today through His church with manifestations of power, gifts, healings, etc. He is not dead, but an anti-charismatic theology is.

God is glorified and people are edified and the enemy is nullified.

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Amen and Amen! :up:

Originally posted by Freak

It might be better if I debate the man (Bob) formally, if he's interested. We can do a Battle Royale regarding this issue. Why do I need to discuss the book with a reader when I can debate the subject with the author himself.:think:

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That would be an interesting Battle Royal. I e-mailed Bob, and I am sure Knight will let him know.

Originally posted by Freak

Bob himself stated: "Miracles foster unbelief." That's absolute nonsense. The miracle of the new birth fosters belief. Scripture recounts the strengthening of the church when the lost is converted. Furthermore...one has to believe in a miracle --the resurrection of Jesus to experience salvation.

Due to Christ's greatest miracle--raising from the dead--we find justification--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

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Freak, you really have no idea what you are talking about here.

The chapter in "The Plot" about miracles is about miracles (each miracle is listed) as they occurred in the Bible and what the general public response was. The chapter is not about Christ being raised from the dead and if that was a miracle or not.

You should really make an effort to understand what you are criticizing before you criticize it.

Originally posted by Shimei

The chapter in "The Plot" about miracles is about miracles (each miracle is listed) as they occurred in the Bible and what the general public response was.

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Bob has stated that he believes miracles, "foster unbelief." This is absolutely bizarre thinking. For as I mentioned, the miracle of the new birth encourages the Body not discourages them.

The chapter is not about Christ being raised from the dead and if that was a miracle or not.

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Why not? He's talking about miracles and yet he fails to mention the greatest of miracles--the miracle of the new birth through the belief in the resurrection of Jesus. How sad.

:down:

Originally posted by Freak

Bob has stated that he believes miracles, "foster unbelief." This is absolutely bizarre thinking. For as I mentioned, the miracle of the new birth encourages the Body not discourages them.

Why not? He's talking about miracles and yet he fails to mention the greatest of miracles--the miracle of the new birth through the belief in the resurrection of Jesus. How sad.

:down:

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Again, Freak it would help if you knew what you were talking about.

It would be interesting to see Enyart defend his great literary work... :think:

Originally posted by Shimei

Again, Freak it would help if you knew what you were talking about.

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Enyart believes miracles fosters unbelief. That's what he believes. He's wrong and I'm willing to defend my position. Will he? :chuckle:

Originally posted by Zakath

It would be interesting to see Enyart defend his great literary work... :think:

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It should be very interesting. :chuckle:

Originally posted by Freak

Bob himself stated: "Miracles foster unbelief." That's absolute nonsense. The miracle of the new birth fosters belief. Scripture recounts the strengthening of the church when the lost is converted. Furthermore...one has to believe in a miracle --the resurrection of Jesus to experience salvation.

Due to Christ's greatest miracle--raising from the dead--we find justification--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

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Freak,

Had we been living in Egypt when the Exodus was taking place, or Isreal when our Lord Jesus was walking, we would have been aware of supernatural gifts. In this time we live, most except Charasmatics believe and rightfully that supernatural gifts are not happening today.

I will contend with you that the answer supernatural gifts are not happening is because the answer has to be dealt dispensationally.

Sir Robert Anderson addressed himself to this in his book, The Silence of God, and gave a very satisfactory answer to why outward, physical miracles do not occur today, based largely upon the dispensational character of God's dealing with the nation of Isreal.

Miracles consist in either the manifestation or the control of power in the physical world beyond human capability. It is not breaking of the laws of nature, but rather the excercising of supernatural power or control over those laws. In Bible times God chose to work through physical miracles and signs and wonders with His people Isreal (Exodus 7-12; 1 Corinthians 1:22). Having cast that nation aside during this present dispensation, He no longer works in this way, as Paul makes plain in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Christ appealed to His mighty works as one of the witnesses of His Deity (John 5:36). These miracles reveal both the power of God and His goodness, as He healed the sick, opened blind eyes, raised the dead, and delivered His saints from prison.

Cause God answers a prayer makes it a miracle?

I think that Freak is lying (to a large degree). I asked him to point out exactly what, and better, exactly where the problem is with His teaching in The Plot about miracles. To date he has names the chapter and it's subtitle and one single claim, nothing more. Furthermore, I asked Freak to begin the discussion with his evaluation of Bob's definition of a biblical miracle, and not to my surprise, he has not. If Freak has read what Bob wrote about the issue, then I see no reason why he is running away from it like he has been doing. I have read The Plot and so far I can tell that Freak has not, also, I can tell by the way Freak has begun this debate that he is ignorant of what Bob actually teaches in chapter 11.

But all that may be besides the point, consider...

I have watched Freak opperate in another thread where he defended a poster who's main argument was not an argument, but simply a claim which he keeps repeating over and over and over again. The claim is that he is right and I am wrong about the correct meaning of a particular text within a particular verse. I consistently point out the utter futility and contradictory nature of such a non-argument, and Freak just gave the other poster his unqualified approval dispite his view being one contradictory and irrational mess. "I" can not, actually, "no one" can argue or reasonably discuss a matter (to a productive redemptive end) with someone as willfully ignorant and irrational as that.

On the bright side, let this be a lesson to us all, if you run into a "wise guy" who will not stray from unreasonable irrationality, like pretending that a claim repeated somehow advances the discussion/debate in a reasonable rational way, then just realize that you can not win a debate with stupid. If someone does not have the room in themselves to allow for a reasonable rational cross examination and debate, then such is the case and no amount of persuasive language and biblical apologetics can have any good effect on an irrational unreasonable soul. Sure, while there's life there's hope, but while there's no humlity to objectively review an issue, there is no way for the truth to have it's way. Those who are lost and end up in hell, won the battle, they resisted the truth until the very end, and they never once humbled themselves, instead, the truth lost and they won the battle for their soul. Same way with sin and pride in a Christian's life, the truth has no place where it is not welcome.

For those who decide to pursue dispite such grand problems, and without Freaks repentance, I hope you realize that it is futile to let the fool dictate the rules of engagement. Do not answer a fool acording to his folly. Only the truth can set him or anyone free, and the truth can not even do that if he is unwilling to be truthful and reasonable and rational in the first place, being nicer than God helps no one.

Best wishes, but be mindful of the truth of the matter.

Lucky - If miracles have ceased like the bible and reality teaches, then the truth about the open view is totally beside the point. If, as we say that miracles are not for today, then the thing to do would be to

- trust the truth of the matter

and if you don't fully understand it,

- find out what you need to learn so that you can understand it.

Do you have any guesses why it is that it would be a good and godly thing to not do miracles in this dispensation? :think:

1Way,

I think Freak hasn't read the Plot either, but be that as it may, what do you expect from someone who applies what was for Isreal and the Dispensation of the Kingdom Offered and applies it to today in our present Dispensation of Mystery or Grace (whatever word you like in this case). I have found most Christians are so stuck on Acts 2 being the beginning of The Church which is the Body of Christ, that they refuse to even look at the evidence presented.