Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

I am through!

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I knew the Biblical standards and truths would stand in the midst of your weak assaults on God's Word. Truth stands and your position has been defeated. No big surprise.

You repeatedly ignore the entire point of my argument and I therefore conclude that you are unable to produce anything that will permit the verification of a single physical miracle, which your position clearly indicates should be present in abundance.

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As Godrulz noted there are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who have experienced the miracles of God. All of them have embrace the essentials of the historic Christian faith and have experienced the miracle life of healing, deliverance, etc...

Then there are millions of believers like myself who are not charismatic (I attend an Anglican fellowship) who have experienced miracles firsthand. My wife has been healed, my sister has been healed, my sister-in-law has been delivered from demons. These were genuine cases of miracles. Furthermore, I have witnessed hundreds of miracles, primarily the casting out of demons in the name of Jesus. But I do not believe the reality miracles because of experience but because God's Word has spoken clearly on the subject.

What the crap would anyone need with a physical miracle where there is no evidence that it ever happened?

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There is ample evidence but like those who killed Jesus they dismissed His miracle working power. Even if the dead were to rise you would deny.

I will not go round and round in circles while you obfuscate and hide from the fact that without such evidence your Biblical position, no matter how well argued, is a house of cards on a foundation of a sand.

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From the very beginning you have refused to deal with the Biblical foundations for our belief miracles are for today...again no big surprise.

...in Holy Scripture we are told...

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

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Too much resting with no action...

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Originally posted by drbrumley

Do you know why miracles were given to the apostles in the first place Freak?

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There are many reasons. But one reason to is to glorify God. God is not dishonored through His miracles, now is He? Secondly, miracles help people as people are freed from demons, healed of diseases, etc...These are acts of compassion. These are acts that God desires His Church to be involved in as He has given His Body the 'gift of miracles' to serve humanity.

You have no idea what was really happening in those days. If you think you know, shed some light for us.

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Not sure what you're talking about. But we know that that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).

You look at God's word in two covenants. That's it as far as I can tell when reading your posts.

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But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

The Scriptures speak of two covenants that is why I believe in 2 covenants.

But you rather hang in there with your seminary taught thoughts and that has infected your thinking.

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I never attended seminary.

You hang on cause in your words, the MAJORITY now and the Early Christian Fathers support you.

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I find truth in Scripture...At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Q1 to Freak-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

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...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete - Your doing a great job! Don't let Freak bother you too much, he is pretty deceptive, like this thread for example, he hasn't even shown anything except a very basic understand of what Bob teaches. You can not refute what you do not understand.

And Freak is one of this forum's most notorious perverts, his does great violence to the truth of the matter, mostly by ripping the words and ideas out of context, and he uses emotional hooks and ploys instead of concrete arguments. He and Jerry S. are much the same way,

they confuse

A claim with an argument
A refutation with a disagreement of opinion

So what do you expect from someone like that? Godrulz is far more honest, but he positions manmade church history so high that God’s word becomes obscured to say the least.

Also about Freak, he is such a hot head. When you do exchanges with him, he is showing the world just how much of a violent person he is, you argue ABC to Freak and Freak says, you know what is wrong with ABC, and that's the last he deals with your point, he just quotes part of your point and then freeforms into some other subjective tangent whatever. So instead of focusing on him so much, I tend to think of those who might be overlooking our discussions, that way the efforts seem more worth while.

:think:
For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable. Keep up the good work! :thumb:

Originally posted by drbrumley


Q1 to Freak-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

GodRulz says along with Freak,



Q1 to Godrulz-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

Please answer both of you. I would greatly appreciate it.

In Christ,
DRBrumley[/i][/b]

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I agree with Freak that there is more than one reason miracles were given. It is a logical fallacy to reduce a multi-faceted topic to a simplistic explanation. All relevant verses must be looked at in context. The whole picture does not come from one passage. Minimally, the ministry of Jesus comes to establish the rule (kingdom) of God and oppose the kingdom of darkness. Jesus came to die, but also to set men free from sin and Satan. He opposed evil and its consequences. We would probably agree with whatever your reason for miracles was, but would build upon it to do justice to the whole picture. I said miracles can facilitate faith or validate the messenger, but that is not the primary or only reason.

I did not go to seminary either. I went to a Bible college (that would not support nor teach the Open View I now believe in). Derby College (not accredited according to their website) and Bob Hill being self-educated does not prove spiritual superiority. If anything, it could increase the possibility of error as one becomes an island outside the checks and balances of godly, trained theologians through the centuries. Everyone with a novel idea seems to think everyone else is wrong and they somehow have it right (tiny minority). There should not be a premium on ignorance nor arrogance. Let us search the Scriptures with humilty, but not in isolation.

Are you a doctor DR? I keep assuming you are. Why were miracles given to the apostles? (your answer would also be appreciated) I think they were the prototype for believers of all generations. The church was to continue the incarnational ministry of Christ through the generations. They factor in the spiritual warfare from Genesis to Revelation. They are from the providential hand of God for His glory and our good. The list could go on...try brainstorming....there is more than one principle/reason God expresses Himself with supernatural interventions. The main motivation is truth and LOVE.

Godrulz – (1 of 2)
You still maintain that miracles are less frequent or less believed today and apparently always, because of unbelief and zeal problems within the church. But when you at least mentioned my argument from scripture about your position, you said

(1) You refer to OT judgments. The book of Revelation has similar judgments. I am not sure the relevance to the miracle issue? (2) Paul dying is not a shift in norms. It is the experience of the miracle-working Master and His followers. (3) You are assuming a shift and only one possible explanation. (4) I contend that God intended to continue the work of Christ through the Church by the Spirit as well as see the Kingdom advance faster and further than it did (an Open Theist should be able to accept this possibility). (5) The explanation why more are not converted or more miracles are not happening is not related to the plan or will of God, as much as the opposition of the enemy and the rationalistic influence from the world.

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(1) I understood and still accurately understand your argument, that the reason that we are not seeing/experiencing more miracles is not because of something in God (dispensational change from law to grace, night to day) but because the church has floundered in error and unbelief, that is why miracles aren’t as common, the problem is with man, not that God does not will not to use miracles.

So I responded against that manmade concept with the fact of the bible. Just consider the OT for an instant and you know unequivocally that God is in no way hampered by the church loosing it’s zeal as a biblically grounded reason for God ceasing or decreasing miracles! Israel mostly hated God, yet they are the nation of the miraculous. The other nations also hated God, yet God’s miracles happened without ANY biblical evidence of your claim at all. God didn’t just judge the nations and condemn them, as a standard means of judgment, He provided miracles and signs in about every single story in the OT. The NT represents about what, half a lifetime, a span of several decades or more, but the OT represents about 4 thousand years of man’s DOCUMENTED history, and God’s word is that man’s lack of belief if anything made God all the more willing to do miracles, so you argument if anything is the exact opposite of the truth of the matter, ,,, that is, if you dare to let God’s word rule in your belief system instead of man’s.

But, notably, you did not even understand my point, although I do not think you are that ignorant generally speaking, I hope this helps you understand what I am saying.

(2) I did not say Paul dying represents a shift in norms, that is egregious and wrong and you know it. I made a clear differentiation, and you completely ignored it. Here it is again, I do not see any reason for you to not understand what I am saying.

Water was turned into wine, Jesus walked on water, the dead was raised, unformed stub limbs grew out into being full formed hands, the blind could see, the death could hear, the lame could walk, Jesus went rocketed out of sight without rockets, Jesus rose from the dead, lepers were healed, I mean come on already, ... ... And to have the 12 and Paul and their converts sick and slaughtered after the many miracles earlier in their lives, is a tremendous shift in norms.

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I am not well studied, except in my study of God’s word, but even there I have a great deal of room to grow, I’ve never went to bible collage nor seminar nor was raised in a household with great interest in doing much bible study. So my expertise or skills as a bible student were largely self directed learning. I just enjoy studying God’s word. So I am not well studied in other Christian disciplines, like church history and such, I do not know specifically how Paul or the 12 died, except for a vague understanding that for the most part, they died horribly, and their followers as well, and even before they died, there were cases of sickness and disease, like Paul’s bad eyesight problems, it was so bad that he practically couldn’t even write right anymore, he had to right really large letters, and such that finally he had to have his writings written for him. Now that is a very serious physical problem for the all star apostle that he was (what, he ended up writing about 2/3 of the NT or so, and he is the major basis for most doctrinal issues), yet Paul, our one single apostle was told by God “no healing for you, My grace is sufficient”. Like Clete has been saying to you, that is a case of God dramatically changing the norm, and there are a few other examples of that sort of thing too, one of Paul’s helpers was told by Paul to drink a little wine for your infirmities, when in the past the norm would have been to also seek a miraculous healing from God, also the miracle accounts became conspicuously less and less recorded as time went on.

(3) That is a half truth, I am assuming a shift, but not prior to going to the scriptures to see it, I did not. After going to God’s word FIRST, the shift is there, even you agreed to the declining occurrences, which I would add are dramatic. I can say the same about you, you assume the shift is not significant or indicative of a change in God’s program, and you see that as the only possible explanation. Well, I could say that, but I am not that ignorant or disrespectful, I believe that you can and do consider other possibilities, and if you don’t, you should, there is nothing to replace an objectively established faith, instead of a subjective one.

(4) Me too, that is a non-argument, and your OV comment seems over the top, no need to invoke the OV to understand God’s dissatisfaction in the church and the world, and pick any age or time period, God is always wanting more for us than we readily accept.

(5) I realize that you were confused, but restating your claim is no substitute for being right and demonstrating the reasons why you think you are right. That is Freak’s and Jerry’s bit, they are the one’s who confuse

an argument with a claim

a refutation with a disagreement

You are the one who constantly confuses

manmade tradition as the authority for matters of faith and living.
cont. next post...

Godrulz – (2 of 2)

You said

I respect all denominations and traditions. I happen to be part of the Pentecostal tradition because of my understanding of Scripture and personal experience ( (6) largest segment of the Body of Christ...what does that tell you...no....the majority of genuine Christians are not deceived by the devil). There are liberal churches in the land that do not preach the gospel nor see the work of the Spirit . This is not an argument against the veracity and validity of the Gospel or the work of the Spirit (I also believe that the Gospel and signs and wonders are related... (7) He still confirms His Word with signs following. He still loves His children and the lost and can and does heal at times).

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(6) What are you saying here, about the largest segment of the Body of Christ? What segment? Surely you are not saying that the Pentacostal tradition is what you had in mind? Secondly, “Largest segment”, “the majority”, You seem to be possibly arguing against my argument/observation that “Christianity” (represented by man that is) is the hotbed of all false Christian doctrine. If that is not what you are doing, then please explain. Say, that makes me wonder, so, do you have certain relational entanglements in your life that might alter your objectivity like Freak and his exorcism bit? i.e. Your father is an elder in your church and your family are longtime Pentecostals or you are currently schooling at the Pentecostal cemetery (opps mortuary, opps ,,, :doh: seminary) or perhaps you are engaged to the pastor’s daughter (of a Pentacostal church), and you “need” to be a good role model Pentacostal? Just curious.

Are you connecting God’s love and care with His occasional miraculous healings? That is a pretty bad connection. Hospitals and old folks homes (etc) are chuck full of sick and dying people who are not getting a miracle healing. Perhaps you think that God heals the few and not the many, not all of them because of??? What, does God play favorites or God loves some more than others?

What word of God told you that God still is in the business of validating His word? Where do you find that idea, from your Pentecostal writings, or from some non-demonic oral tradition, or from God’s word, or?

(7) If you are saying that the canon is open, then is there a definitive collection of this ongoing extra-biblical word of God? If it’s the same word, only found in the holy scriptures, then why would God continue to be confirming His word, didn’t He do a good enough job the first time? Also, do you have ANY biblical support reasoning to offer for this dubious view?

power from on high......

power from on high......

"And when He had called his twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sicknesses and all kinds of diseases." - {Matt 10:1; Mark 3:14,15; Luke 9:1,2 }


Nowhere in the NT does Jesus ever imply that the power and authority to heal the sick (which includes the ministry of deliverance)....was only for the first 12 disciples......as we see the 70 and other believers having this spiritual authority and power - the vestments that Christ confers upon his faithful ones is the knowledge, wisdom and authority to act in his name. These disciples had this investment and were thus deputized even before the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost! Now that we as sons of God have been given the Spirit and anointed thereby.....how much more power and authority do we now have to minister in the grace and power of the Lord Jesus?

It is only an impotent and faithless generation that seeks for a sign before they can believe God for anything. Faith comes first. Signs, wonders and miracles follow faith! Jesus said signs would follow them who believe.....and that we would do greater works....as we walk in the power of the faith of God in us. The vestments of God are granted to his ministers and those He anoints with His Spirit and power. It is thru His church that He manifests His power of salvation - we are His hands, His body, His presence in the earth...for He dwells in us - we are His tabernacles. It is time for the faithlessness of His people to be discarded and the faith of the Lion of Judah to arise in the hearts of His beloved ones....that they like David...would have a heart after Gods own.....and walk in the Light of His Son.

In the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom...Jesus anoints us for service - to prophesy.....and to administer healing and deliverance to the sick and captive. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - the true servants of God walk in His power....and minister His grace with power - God works mightily thru them. These ones walk in the dynamo of God and as beacons of Light....for their God is Light....and they are His sons. The Lord Jesus teaches and leads his disciples in the school of faith.....and empowers them for service.

Anyone who has experienced the power of God and his divine presence along with the NT witness (the Word and the Spirit)....cannot so easily or vainly deny that Gods Spirit-power and anointing has somehow been withdrawn from the Church triumphant. It is folly and grave blindness. All the glory, power and presence of God is in His Son! (His body). We are His sons! We have been given his faith, his Spirit, his name, his glory! In Him dwells the FULLNESS! He is our HEAD, we are His BODY - we are ONE. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Even I having a varied background and versatility have some sense of faith and the power of the Spirit....as I have touched and tasted the glory of the Spirit and His anointing. Personal experience with God lives on in ones soul as a lasting memorial...and can never be denied by that soul. What I dont understand is why there is faithlessness manifested by those who call themselves christians....as Jesus taught much about faith and its power. Faith is naturally a co-existent factor working within the dynamic of consciousness relative to divine ministrations. Jesus showed that faith not only saved souls...but also brought wholeness and healing to the spirit, soul and body of individuals. Even though it appears because of such disbelief around us (and within the 'church') that nothing miraculous is going on and God is not in the midst.........then such can only be indicative of faithlessness. Visit vibrant and Spirit-filled communities within the Body of Christ...and you will see that some parts of the Body are experiencing a greater flow of Life....for they are abiding in the Vine...and naturally(and supernaturally) bear its fruit.

The reality of faith and the power of God as a living dynamic in the body of His Anointed One......is primary......and it is this living spirit ministry and economy in God that is central to christian community.
God is Spirit, God is Life, God is Light. His Christ is the extension of His own Being.....and we as His body are further extensions of the ONE LIFE.....the Only Power Being. It is time for the church to arise and claim her sonship.



paul

Originally posted by 1Way

Clete - Your doing a great job!

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Yes, he's doing a good job ignoring the Scriptural evidence for miracles being for today..

I'll give him another opoortunity to answer this concerns of mine..

We are told in Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles. Why would God give us these gifts if it didn't want miracles to occur in our day?

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly),

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Incorrect. A lie. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective.

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My objective truth comes from God's Word.

Evidence is found in Scripture not in experience.

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable.

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Incapable of doing what? Your grammar is horrific. :down:

Originally posted by 1Way

For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective.

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Incorrect. A lie. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

1Way, will you retract your lie.

1. You have publically slandered me while acknowledging "if I'm informed correctly." Why don't you do the Godly thing and ask me personally before going on record as stating something that is untrue. :nono:

2. It is a lie to suggest that the alteration of my view on miracles would invalidate my life--a. my life's validation is found in Jesus Christ and His Word not in miracles, b. my belief in miracles is rooted in Scriptural truth and not in denial (your present condition).

Originally posted by 1Way

Clete - Your doing a great job! Don't let Freak bother you too much, he is pretty deceptive, like this thread for example, he hasn't even shown anything except a very basic understand of what Bob teaches. You can not refute what you do not understand.

And Freak is one of this forum's most notorious perverts, his does great violence to the truth of the matter, mostly by ripping the words and ideas out of context, and he uses emotional hooks and ploys instead of concrete arguments. He and Jerry S. are much the same way,

they confuse

A claim with an argument
A refutation with a disagreement of opinion

So what do you expect from someone like that? Godrulz is far more honest, but he positions manmade church history so high that God’s word becomes obscured to say the least.

Also about Freak, he is such a hot head. When you do exchanges with him, he is showing the world just how much of a violent person he is, you argue ABC to Freak and Freak says, you know what is wrong with ABC, and that's the last he deals with your point, he just quotes part of your point and then freeforms into some other subjective tangent whatever. So instead of focusing on him so much, I tend to think of those who might be overlooking our discussions, that way the efforts seem more worth while.

:think:
For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable. Keep up the good work! :thumb:

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Thanks for the encouraging words 1way. I agree that there are probably those that are reading but not engaged in this debate and I am hopeful that my argument has been better received by those who are less entrenched in this doctrine of miracles. I would be more than willing to continue for their sake if it didn't mean circling the same barn six hundred and sixty six times! And besides that, I think my point has been made as forcefully as can be done. Further, the fact that Freak insists that physical evidence exists for physical miracles but has failed to produce any is sufficient to communicate the weakness of his position. No doubt he will continue to repeat himself with his Biblical argument and that’s fine. But what I think he fails to realize is that there was a time that the church had a Biblical argument for believing the Earth was both flat and the center of the universe and that it was physical evidence that proved their Biblical argument wrong.
At any rate, that will be my last word on the subject for a while. I do not promise not to return.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Further, the fact that Freak insists that physical evidence exists for physical miracles but has failed to produce any is sufficient to communicate the weakness of his position.

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How many times do we have to tell you, Clete, that our position for miracles today is rooted in Scripture-objective truth. Not experience and yet you still desire to hear some miracle story. I told you my sister, sister-in-law, and my wife have experienced miracles. I have shared with you the miracles that are occuring on the set of the Passion. Furthermore...millions of believers around the world have reported miracles (like the New York Times or the liberal media will be sympathetic to these miracles). But these miracle stories are experiences. This is good. However, our belief in miracles stem from what the Bible teaches on the subject. The Bible clearly teaches that God gives His church gifts, gifts that include the working of miracles. If He didn't desire miracles to occur He wouldn't give His Body the gift of miracles.

No doubt he will continue to repeat himself with his Biblical argument and that’s fine.

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I'm glad I get your approval to use God's Word as my objective standard. You're asking for stories and I'm calling you back to the Biblical standard.

But what I think he fails to realize is that there was a time that the church had a Biblical argument for believing the Earth was both flat and the center of the universe and that it was physical evidence that proved their Biblical argument wrong.

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There was no Biblical argument for the flatness of the earth. Besides, we don't need physical evidence to validate the Bible, Clete. Imagine that. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it.

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Freak: Biblical reference for last quote would help our friends read the context and feel its impact.

Have you heard of 'Pigs in the Parlor?' Who wrote that book? I disagree that there is a demon behind every rock. I hope you have a balanced deliverance ministry.

1Way: I also am an amateur theologian at best. I do have a B.Th. that hopefully helps me think critically and helps me to use tools or know where to look. I also am primarily self-taught since I do not accept all the party line of my denomination (e.g. Open Theism).

I did shift the onus to the Church for the decrease in miracles. To balance this, the other factor is the sovereignty of God. In His wisdom, He does what He wants (OT miracles, despite unbelief) when He wants. There are seasons of the outpouring of the Spirit or judgment. We learn to live on the mountain top and the valley. This is your personal experience and is seen even in the life of Jesus. Perhaps this is to build faith and character and to keep our focus on God and not His power (He wants to be loved for who He is and not just for what He does).

Charles Finney taught principles of revival. Calvinists opposed him and sat around waiting for God to do something in His sovereignty (nothing happened ironically). Finney saw great revival and spiritual awakening, because He understood the dynamic of God and man in relationship (as we Open Theists appreciate).

2 Chron. 7:14 "... IF (condition) my people who are called by my name, will humble THEMSELVES and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN (consequence) will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and WILL heal their land."

Yes, God confirmed His Word initially as recorded in the closed canon (continued History of the church through the generations is not a canonical issue). This does not preclude God confirming His Word with signs following in each generation and in specific locales (like for the Buddhist nurses who now follow Jesus because Nita Edward's hospital room was invaded by the living God throwing her out of bed onto her feet instantly healed!). This issue should not be confused with the lame Baptistic, canonical argument. The God of Elijah is showing the modern Baals who is the true God (miracle instead of fire scenario).

Freelight is correct to observe that we are also disciples who have been commissioned to PREACH the Gospel, which assumes that we will also heal the sick and deliver the demonized (Satan did not retire, and humanity still has needs).

Your mystery is why would God stop being the supernatural God (you did not answer my recent sincere question explicitly...is it a canon issue, dispensation issue and why?).

The Pentecostal mystery is why do some get healed and not others? Why do we not see more miracles (we do see some, which undermines your premise completely)?

I believe it honors God to wrestle with the latter issue, and grieves God that those dealing with the first issue do not know Him in the same way the early church did (i.e. you put God in a dispensational box and limit His creative and loving power and goodness).

Originally posted by Freak

How many times do we have to tell you, Clete, that our position for miracles today is rooted in Scripture-objective truth. Not experience and yet you still desire to hear some miracle story....

I'm glad I get your approval to use God's Word as my objective standard. You're asking for stories and I'm calling you back to the Biblical standard.

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This is where you continually (and I believe intentionally) miss the point Freak.
I DO NOT want miracle stories! If I wanted stories all I would have to do is turn on TBN. Stories don't cut it at all. I want verifiable EVIDENCE that physical miracles are happening today.
I'll give you an example of the sort of physical evidence that I'm looking for.
The Bible teaches that Jesus rose from the dead. (A Miracle by any standard!)
The tomb He was laid in is PHYSICALLY empty!

Get it?

EVIDENCE! not stories!

My point stated yet another way is that the Bible does not fly in the face of reality! As you said, there is no good argument from scripture that the Earth is flat. In fact just the opposite the Bible calls the Earth a sphere! And low and behold, you can confirm this Biblical idea with physical evidence! In the same way, if miracles are happening today then we should be able to demonstrate that fact by the presentation of independently verifiable evidence.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete... :first: POTD

Originally posted by Knight

Clete... :first: POTD

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Thanks Knight!

Sorry about the typos in my post! I've edited them out now, I hope I got em all! My public school edumacation is showing!

Resting in Him,
Clete

proof seekers.......

proof seekers.......

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony."

-Heb 11:1


So far all I see from the Enyart supporters on this issue is a condition of faithlessness and unwillingness to believe God for enhancing natural laws (such as rates of healing) and transcending them supernaturally(such as more creative miracles) - you say you believe God 'could' do miracles in this day and age....BUT - there's the big 'but'(which is conditional faith)........since you dont see any or havent read any documented miracles...that somehow means God has closed shop and has retired. God is still very much alive....and living vibrantly among the faith-full. Faith is the substance. Are you afraid to believe God for miracles(of any degree) - why then do you pray or even have faith of any degree for anything??? Oh, just for salvation - well .....salvation includes wholeness for spirit, soul and body. Faith is all-inclusive.

Jesus taught, 'according to your faith...let it be so'.....and many were saved by 'faith' even before his crucifixion, resurrection. 'Your faith has saved you (made you whole)'. Now that we have the Spirit of God....how much more can the faith of God in us be released unto His glory? Here you have people in the gospels during Jesus lifetime(before his resurrection).....being healed by faith...and now in this day and age you have 'believers' who supposedly have Christ in them and the Holy Spirit....and these ones are essentially 'unbelievers'. A sad scenario.

My experience and knowledge of scripture tells me that I have permission and liberty to exercise great faith....as taught, lived and realized in Jesus. There are no limits to this faith...that I a human being can put on it - for its source/substance is of God. God cannot be limited but only by His own volition - however....this is the Age of grace and the Holy Spirit....and the laws of faith and the charismas of the Spirit have not been stripped from the faithful.....for God is YHWH Shammah/Immanuel.....He IS! And HE lives amidst the community of those who have faith in HIM - He is their Life and glory.
These dimensions can be realized thru a spiritual dynamic and understanding - one must have the witness of the Spirit to know such.

It is ok to demand proof that miracles (of any degree) are taking place today....but this doesnt pressupose the negation of the power of faith to bring such things about.....as faith is ever dynamic...and has the power to make whole; the power to save. This faith is of God....therefore the substantive miracle working power of God is within it!

When the Son of Man returns....will he really find faith in the earth?


paul

establish the truth, stand in the truth, walk in the truth, humbly submit 2 the truth

establish the truth, stand in the truth, walk in the truth, humbly submit 2 the truth

Freak – (?) I thought you do exorcisms, as part of your ministry? I thought that doing exorcisms is part of your life that you affirm as being valid for today?


Is it true that you claim to be an exorcist as part of, or perhaps a large feature of your ministry?


Also, naturally I thought that your book (how many? Just one, or?) confirms your beliefs about the work of the Holy Spirit including miracles and such things as exorcism for example.


Is that true, that you wrote a book that conforms to your faith about miracles?


Lastly, I did mix your life and ministry with your livelihood, but I did so because of your book which I assume you do not give away, but rather hope to make a profit.


Is that true, that you do not give away your books, you try to sell them for a goal to actually make a profit?


Please clarify; just claiming that I am wrong does not establish nor resolve anything.

Freelight - Open your eyes, various arguments and points raised have been offered to support our view during your involvement in this thread, it's not just a lack of evidence, but the comprehensive nature of the lack of evidence provided for the last 20 centuries is most convincing.

You have been exposed to several arguments besides this one, so don't pretend like we have not provided them, even if they have not been fully developed, they have been provided.

Godrulz – You said

Yes, God confirmed His Word initially as recorded in the closed canon (continued History of the church through the generations is not a canonical issue). This does not preclude God confirming His Word with signs following in each generation and in specific locales (like for the Buddhist nurses who now follow Jesus because Nita Edward's hospital room was invaded by the living God throwing her out of bed onto her feet instantly healed!). This issue should not be confused with the lame Baptistic, canonical argument. The God of Elijah is showing the modern Baals who is the true God (miracle instead of fire scenario).

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Which was in response to my saying

What word of God told you that God still is in the business of validating His word? Where do you find that idea, from your Pentecostal writings, or from some non-demonic oral tradition, or from God’s word, or?

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You did not answer my question, you simply restated your claims. Where do you find the idea that God is still in the business of validating His word with the miraculous? Where do you get that idea from? Where? I want to know where, not what you believe, WHERE.

For example, pick any old miracle from way back, like the 10 plagues in Egypt, or the flood, or God marking Cain so that no one should punish him for murdering his brother. In what way would those validations of God’s authority be not already completed? Why would He need to continue to validate something that has already been fully validated? Is God slowly improving His validation skills, or? As to the example of the flood, and the sign He gave in the rainbow, God establishes that His word is valid, his signs are sufficient and there is no need for Him to do it over and over as though He did not do a good enough job the first time. Each rainbow makes the exact same validation of God’s word, there is no new or ongoing validation going on, just the same completed ones He finished correctly each time.

I am pointing out to you the obvious. You are not getting this article of your faith from God’s word, instead you are willingly bound to a manmade tradition.

You said

Freelight is correct to observe that we are also disciples who have been commissioned to PREACH the Gospel, which assumes that we will also heal the sick and deliver the demonized (Satan did not retire, and humanity still has needs).

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Speak for yourself. I say you are not preaching THE gospel, you are preaching a perversion of two gospels. Also, I am not under the so called great commission that you allude to, that of the circumcision, I am not that confused, I am commissioned by God through our one apostle
To reflect the teachings of God for this dispensation which largely include to make all men see what is the dispensation of mystery, Eph 3, and

2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things [are] of God , who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

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You said

Your mystery is why would God stop being the supernatural God (you did not answer my recent sincere question explicitly...is it a canon issue, dispensation issue and why?).

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It’s no mystery to me why God would change His mode of operation, not stop being supernatural. I don’t understand why you do not stand corrected about your use of the word supernatural and miraculous. I have tried to correct you about that, but you seem determined to mix the two.

I don’t remember you asking any such question, explicitly or otherwise. Please reference the question so that I may understand what you are talking about.

You said

I believe it honors God to wrestle with the latter issue, and grieves God that those dealing with the first issue do not know Him in the same way the early church did (i.e. you put God in a dispensational box and limit His creative and loving power and goodness).

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Nowhere does God teach that the faithful and righteous way of understanding God is the way God established prior to the dispensation of grace.

Where did you get that idea from?

And what about you boxing in God’s love and goodness with His doing the miraculous? God does not teach such a connection, in fact, LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING, God teaches that it is wickedness to promote miracles as being a good faith causing thing. I repeat

1) it is a wicked and perverse generation who seeks a sign
2) even if one is raised from the dead, they still will not believe


Jesus teaches against your view, and I give you at least this much credit, you have done nothing, although you would like to, you have done nothing to refute this teaching that the expectation or desire for miracles is wickedness and is said to be NOT an issue of fostering belief, rather, they will not believe. Also, faith in God is fundamentally 1) things hoped for and 2) things not see (experienced) therefore miracles are not an issue of faith, they eliminate exercising/fostering faith, all a miracle requires is consciousness.

If you never feel wicked or evil for promoting the expectation of signs and wonders and other such miracles, then now is a good time to start to reflect upon the hardness of your heart, IF you are unyielding to God’s word on this or any other matter.

What I think is great, is that this is a pretty riveting discussion. I look forward to more bible expositions, save Freaks obfuscation side show. And just think, after only 320 posts (isolated ridicule remark), the issue about what a miracle is, has not even been dealt with. Talk about an opportunity for growth and advancement.

Understanding BEFORE judgment. (Right??? godrulz)