Originally posted by JustAChristian
Do you really think that Jesus would ever live in a heart that denies the bible. Jesus said to be baptized (in water) to wash away sins (Acts 22:16; Acts 8:36-37; 1 Peter 3:19-21). The cleansing is spiritual, not physical (1 Peter 3:21).
Quote c.moore
When you say this is about a spiritual baptism, then we have the same understanding, praise God in 1 peter 3:21.
You said:
It is obeying the Lord and generating the "new birth". The heart that does not listen to Jesus on the matter of baptism is calling Him a liar. He said to be baptized.
Quote c.moore
Where is this scripture quoting this what you said:The heart that does not listen to Jesus on the matter of baptism is calling Him a liar?????
you said:
The apostles never questioned preaching the essentially of being immersed in water for the remission of sins. You aught to listen to the Bible instead of your friends on this link. They don't have to answer for you. You'll answer for yourself on this point. And, at the judgement bar of Christ is not the place to come having not listened to Him.
Quote c.moore
Joh:1:33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
A clue to the meaning of baptism is given by three OT types: the flood (I Pet. 3:19-20), the Red Sea (I Cor. 10:1-2), and circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). These all refer in different ways to the divine covenant, to its provisional fulfillment in a divine act of judgment and grace, and to the coming and definitive fulfillment in the baptism of the cross. The conjunction of water with death and redemption is particularly apt in the case of the first two; the covenantal aspect is more particularly emphasized in the third.
When we come to the action itself, there are many different but interrelated associations. The most obvious is that of washing (Titus 3:5), the cleansing water being linked with the blood of Christ on the one side and the purifying action of the Spirit on the other (see I John 5:6, 8), so that we are brought at once to the divine work of reconciliation. A second is that of initiation, adoption, or, more especially, regeneration (John 3:5), the emphasis again being placed on the operation of the Spirit in virtue of the work of Christ.
These various themes find common focus in the primary thought of baptism (in the destructive, yet also life-giving, power of water) as a drowning and an emergence to new life, i.e., a death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4). But here again the true witness of the action is to the work of God in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ. This identification with sinners in judgment and renewal is what Jesus accepts when he comes to the baptism of John and fulfills when he takes his place between two thieves on the cross (Luke 12:50). Here we have the real baptism of the NT, which makes possible the baptism of our identification with christ and underlies and is attested by the outward sign. Like preaching and the Lord's Supper, "baptism" is an evangelical word telling us that Christ has died and risen again in our place, so that we are dead and alive again in him, with him, and through him (Rom. 6:4, 11).
Like all preaching, however, baptism carries with it the call to that which we should do in response or correspondence to what Christ has done for us. We, too must make our movement of death and resurrection, not to add to what Christ has done, nor to complete it, nor to compete with it, but in grateful acceptance and application. We do this in three related ways constantly kept before us by our baptism: the initial response of repentance and faith (Gal. 2:20); the lifelong process of mortification and renewal (Eph. 4:22-23); and the final dissolution and resurrection of the body (I Cor. 15). This rich signification of baptism, which is irrespective of the time or manner of baptism, is the primary theme that ought to occupy us in baptismal discussion and preaching. But it must be emphasized continually that this personal acceptance or entry is not independent of the once for all and substitutionary work of Christ, which is the true baptism.
It is forgetfulness of this point which leads to misunderstanding of the so-called grace of baptism. This may be by its virtual denial. Baptism has no grace apart from its psychological effects. It is primarily a sign of something that we do, and its value may be assessed only in explicable religious terms. The fact that spiritual gifts and even faith itself are true gifts of the Holy Spirit, with an element of the mysterious and incalculable, is thus denied.
On the other hand, it may be by distortion or exaggeration. Baptism means the almost automatic infusion of a mysterious substance which accomplishes a miraculous but not very obvious transformation. It is thus to be regarded with awe, and fulfilled as an action of absolute necessity to salvation except in very special cases. The true mystery of the Holy Spirit yields before ecclesiastical magic and theological sophistry.
But when baptismal grace is brought into proper relationship to the work of God, we are helped on the way to a fruitful understanding.
First, and above all, we remember that behind the external action there lies the true baptism, which is that of the shed blood of Christ. Baptismal grace is the grace of this true reality of baptism, i.e., of the substitutionary work of Christ, or of Christ himself. Only in this sense can we legitimately speak of grace, but in this sense we can and must.
Second, we remember that behind the external action there lies the inward operation of the Spirit moving the recipient to faith in Christ's work and accomplishing regeneration to the life of faith. Baptismal grace is the grace of this internal work of the Spirit, which cannot be presumed (for the Spirit is sovereign) but which we dare to believe where there is a true calling on the name of the Lord.
Third, the action itself is divinely ordianed as a means of grace, i.e., a means to present Christ and therefore to fulfill the attesting work of the Spirit. It does not do this by the mere performance of the prescribed rite; it does it in and through its meaning. Nor does it do it alone; its function is primarily to seal and confirm, and therefore it does it in conjunction with the spoken and written word. It need not do it at the time of administration; for, under the gracious sovereignty of the Spirit, its fruition may come at a much later date. It does not do it automatically; for, whereas Christ is always present and his grace remains, there are those who respond to neither word nor sacrament and therefore miss the true and inward meaning and power.
When we think in these terms, we can see that there is and ought to be a real, though not a magical, baptismal grace which is not affected greatly by the detailed time or mode of administration. The essentials are that we use it (1) to present Christ, (2) in prayer to the Holy Spirit, (3) in trustful dependence upon his sovereign work, and (4) in conjunction with the spoken word. Restored to this evangelical use, and freed especially from distorting and unhelpful controversy, baptism might quickly manifest again its power as a summons to live increasingly, or even to begin to live, the life which is ours in Christ crucified and risen for us.
let God bless you
Quote c.moore
So know you can see , that it`s not our bad works that condemns us, but because of adam disobedience.
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Quote justAchristian
You didn't read Isaiah 59:1-2 before you made that statement, did you?
Yes, I did but I ran into these scriptures also.
Isa:59:1: Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa:59:2: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa:64:6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
But where does the sin start from?
the bible says
How can you commit sin coming out of your mother stomack??????
M't:15:19: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies
Ge:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Psalms:53:3: Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
Ro:5:14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
even over them that had not sinned .even over them that had not sinned ,even over them that had not sinned .
Sorry the bible got stucked here.
You said:
Jesus obeyed his mission to die on the cross. By this he provided a way of salvation for "whosoever will". His obedience does not negate our need to obey unto salvation. You want it this way, but that is never going to happen
Quote c.moore
You say we need to obey to get unto salvation, but we obey because we Love the Lord Jesus, but not to be a jimmy just give me.
The first love is the reason why we what to please the Lord and be faithful, and obedient, but not to get a good report card from heaven with conduct A.
You said:
We are sinners because we sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4). It is not something you are born with. Calvinist believe that, but sin is not inherited.
Quote C.moore
I don`t care about calvinist theology , I care what the bible says:
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
Ro:5:14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
even over them that had not sinned .even over them that had not sinned ,even over them that had not sinned .
Sorry the bible got stucked here.
You said:
Well, I know this Bible is not in error (err) and there is the possibility that I have often been in error, but if I could understand what your point is perhaps I could fully answer your question.
Quote c.moore
My point is, can`t you see what the bible is saying???Ro:5:14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
even over them that had not sinned .even over them that had not sinned ,even over them that had not sinned .
But JustAchristian adds to the bible that we must first sin, and work and earn our curse through our own sins,like we have to do to get righteous.
You said:
I strive to always admit the truth. Man is a sinner because he sins. He is lost because he sinned.
This is not what Roman is saying , our does the bible contradict itself?????????????????????????????????
You said Quote:
C.moore, You are not going to find a single statement where I have said water saves. The Bible says Noah and his family was saved by water, but it was not baptism. It was the water separating them from sin.
Quote C.moore
No , How can the water save, and where is this found this scripture water saves???
I see that the boat is what saves, and everyone in,in in the boat was saved, and everything outside the boat was destroyed but water, so basically the water itself was death,or the gas chamber.
That why we are save IN, In, IN, Jesus, and Jesusis in us, and we are protect as long as Jesus lives in us, just as Noah was protected as long as they stayed in the boat.
That why we need to put our trust in Jesus, and we are SAVED.
What do you think the boat was fore if you keep saying water saves????????
Noah could not walk on the water like peter, or do you have a bible no one knows about????????
I`ll stop here, and wait for the answers you will come up with.
I got to see this, and I know others will what to see where you are coming from.
This thread has been going to long and it time to really bring out the truth.
There is only one truth, either true or lie,recieved or decieved.
peace
I have always said that baptism saves. Do you see that? Baptism saves! Now, get off you hobby horse on that subject and read some truth in what I say.
Quote c.moore
