toldailytopic: At what point does drinking alcohol become sinful?

Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 4th, 2013 06:00 AM


toldailytopic: At what point does drinking alcohol become sinful?






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B

bybee

New member
resurrected said:
When it leads to sinful behavior that one might not otherwise consider engaging in
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Agreed, and, if one is addicted, the sin occurs with the first sip.
As with any addiction, a choice is made. Inevitable consequences occur.
I detest excuses, pity party's and projecting blame anywhere but on one's self.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
bybee said:
As with any addiction, a choice is made.
Click to expand...
Except that by definition, addiction means that we have lost the power of choice. I know this is impossible for people who have not experienced addiction to understand, but being addicted means being unable to stop, even when you want to.

Also, it's important to understand that one of the most imposing characteristics of an addiction is a blind obsession with the substance we're addicted to. Alcoholics, for example, simply cannot comprehend alcohol or it's effects, reasonably. So that their "choices" become the choices of a person who is not capable of thinking reasonably about their own behavior.
bybee said:
Inevitable consequences occur.
Click to expand...
Of course. YOU can see that, and so can everyone around the alcoholic who is not also alcoholic, but the alcoholic himself will either simply not see them, or they will not register in his mind as a real consequence. Believe me, I have been there many, many times. And it's inexplicable how the mind simply erases all cognizance of reason and proportion when it comes to the consequences of getting drunk, when you're alcoholic. To an alcoholic, getting drunk is far more than a desire that he can reasonably turn down. It's a blinding obsession that owns him, and will destroy him and everything he loves. It's like living in a nightmare where some evil force inside you just takes over.
bybee said:
I detest excuses, pity party's and projecting blame anywhere but on one's self.
Click to expand...
Alcoholism is not an "excuse", it's an illness. I know it's much more fun and much easier to just blame the addict and then wash your hands of him/her in the resulting righteous indignation that you feel, but the sad truth is that addictions are a form of mental and physical illness that we still have not found a cure for. And it's terminal. It kills millions and millions of human beings every year, while it does untold harm to their families and to those who love them.

It's a very difficult affliction to understand, and even more frustrating to have to deal with, which often causes a lot of anger and resentment. But it is what it is, and blaming and washing our hands isn't going to help anyone. We need to face it for what it is and try and understand how it works, before we can ever hope to find a way through it, to healing.
 
Quincy

Quincy

New member
I don't know when it becomes a sin. I don't drink at all however because I have a very addiction prone personality. I agree with PureX on some points he mentioned. I remember when I was addicted to pain killers, I'd try to make a choice to quit but it never worked. I could maybe go a year or two without taking any but they constantly sat in the back of my mind and when things got to hard, my desire for them triggered and I could not make a choice to avoid them. It wasn't until I met my significant other that I was able to truly kick the habit, I was able to replace the pills with her love and support.
 
Rusha

Rusha

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The act of drinking is wrong when it is done to such an extent that it places others at risk.
 
N

not4sure

New member
It also can be sinful when it causes another to stumble.

1 Cor. 8:13 pertains I believe...

Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
 
B

bybee

New member
PureX said:
Except that by definition, addiction means that we have lost the power of choice. I know this is impossible for people who have not experienced addiction to understand, but being addicted means being unable to stop, even when you want to.

Also, it's important to understand that one of the most imposing characteristics of an addiction is a blind obsession with the substance we're addicted to. Alcoholics, for example, simply cannot comprehend alcohol or it's effects, reasonably. So that their "choices" become the choices of a person who is not capable of thinking reasonably about their own behavior.
Of course. YOU can see that, and so can everyone around the alcoholic who is not also alcoholic, but the alcoholic himself will either simply not see them, or they will not register in his mind as a real consequence. Believe me, I have been there many, many times. And it's inexplicable how the mind simply erases all cognizance of reason and proportion when it comes to the consequences of getting drunk, when you're alcoholic. To an alcoholic, getting drunk is far more than a desire that he can reasonably turn down. It's a blinding obsession that owns him, and will destroy him and everything he loves. It's like living in a nightmare where some evil force inside you just takes over.
Alcoholism is not an "excuse", it's an illness. I know it's much more fun and much easier to just blame the addict and then wash your hands of him/her in the resulting righteous indignation that you feel, but the sad truth is that addictions are a form of mental and physical illness that we still have not found a cure for. And it's terminal. It kills millions and millions of human beings every year, while it does untold harm to their families and to those who love them.

It's a very difficult affliction to understand, and even more frustrating to have to deal with, which often causes a lot of anger and resentment. But it is what it is, and blaming and washing our hands isn't going to help anyone. We need to face it for what it is and try and understand how it works, before we can ever hope to find a way through it, to healing.
Click to expand...

Alrighty then! You pompous, smug, judgmental, self-righteous relativist! I am a person who conquered a two pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey! It took me two years to stop having "nic fits" but I hung in there. At the time my husband was a flaming alcoholic almost destroyed the family. Life was stressful. My oldest daughter was a drug addict and my third daughter was working on becoming the alcoholic that she is to this day.
Then I became addicted to the slots. Oh how I loved those slots. In fact, I still love those slots! However, I will never go near a casino again. I conquered that addiction too. I don't like making myself poor or making myself unhealthy. I also don't like the idea that other people will have to take over and make decisions for me. I don't want other people to go without so that I can SIN! Self-indulgence is sin. Whining, sniveling, can't get enough of other peoples time, talent and money sin!
I still eat too much but, I'm working on it.
 
Nick M

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Rusha said:
The act of drinking is wrong when it is done to such an extent that it places others at risk.
Click to expand...

Wrong. It is when it places anybody at risk, including themselves. Which is why God said don't be a drunkard. That is the standard.
 
Buzzword

Buzzword

New member
bybee said:
Alrighty then! You pompous, smug, judgmental, self-righteous relativist! I am a person who conquered a two pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey! It took me two years to stop having "nic fits" but I hung in there. At the time my husband was a flaming alcoholic almost destroyed the family. Life was stressful. My oldest daughter was a drug addict and my third daughter was working on becoming the alcoholic that she is to this day.
Then I became addicted to the slots. Oh how I loved those slots. In fact, I still love those slots! However, I will never go near a casino again. I conquered that addiction too. I don't like making myself poor or making myself unhealthy. I also don't like the idea that other people will have to take over and make decisions for me. I don't want other people to go without so that I can SIN! Self-indulgence is sin. Whining, sniveling, can't get enough of other peoples time, talent and money sin!
I still eat too much but, I'm working on it.
Click to expand...

You apparently didn't see the part of his post regarding "righteous indignation".

That you were able to simply bash through an addiction has more to do with your genetics than with some objective concept outside yourself or anyone else.

Doing so also probably did much more neurological and physical damage than you know or are willing to admit.

It most definitely does NOT give you the right to decry others as "whiners" who just make up "excuses" because they required a support system to overcome their addictions.

Certain people are genetically predisposed to become addicted (to ANYTHING), while others are not.

The fact that most recovering addicts require years of counseling and deep emotional support from family and friends seems to throw a wrench in your implied "I did it through sheer willpower so EVERYONE should have to do it through sheer willpower!"


The woman who would have been my mother-in-law had she lived was not able to give up cigarettes, even after being diagnosed with lung cancer. She had been smoking for more than thirty years, and even with the looming specter of death was only able to "move up" to a nicotine inhaler. Several of her relatives, even after seeing the endless torture she experienced leading up to her death, STILL could not overcome their addiction to cigarettes.
 
B

bybee

New member
Buzzword said:
You apparently didn't see the part of his post regarding "righteous indignation".

That you were able to simply bash through an addiction has more to do with your genetics than with some objective concept outside yourself or anyone else.

Doing so also probably did much more neurological and physical damage than you know or are willing to admit.

It most definitely does NOT give you the right to decry others as "whiners" who just make up "excuses" because they required a support system to overcome their addictions.

Certain people are genetically predisposed to become addicted (to ANYTHING), while others are not.

The fact that most recovering addicts require years of counseling and deep emotional support from family and friends seems to throw a wrench in your implied "I did it through sheer willpower so EVERYONE should have to do it through sheer willpower!"


The woman who would have been my mother-in-law had she lived was not able to give up cigarettes, even after being diagnosed with lung cancer. She had been smoking for more than thirty years, and even with the looming specter of death was only able to "move up" to a nicotine inhaler. Several of her relatives, even after seeing the endless torture she experienced leading up to her death, STILL could not overcome their addiction to cigarettes.
Click to expand...

Yes, no doubt I am a complete dimwit, nevertheless, I stand my ground. We must stop wallowing and making excuses and blaming others for our own short comings. Yes, shortcomings! We all have them and we all must deal with them. Get help from others but do your own work. Reasons are not excuses!
People make choices.
 
Buzzword

Buzzword

New member
bybee said:
Yes, no doubt I am a complete dimwit, nevertheless, I stand my ground. We must stop wallowing and making excuses and blaming others for our own short comings. Yes, shortcomings! We all have them and we all must deal with them. Get help from others but do your own work. Reasons are not excuses!
People make choices.
Click to expand...

You imply I insulted you.
I did not.
Except to say that you do not have the right to deem others who are perhaps struggling more than you did as "whiners".

People choose to START.
They do not choose to become addicted, and once addicted any semblance of choice is out the window.

Until someone else intervenes (that's why they're called interventions, after all).

An addict doesn't "wallow".
A person who genuinely enjoys an activity deemed socially unacceptable "wallows" because he/she genuinely enjoys the activity whilst the rest of society tells him/her that he/she not only shouldn't enjoy the activity, they should stop immediately.

Example:
A young woman who enjoys sex, doesn't want to get married, yet has been indoctrinated to think that birth control is a sin.
She continues to have child after child, not because she wants to have children, but because she enjoys sex and has not been taught that she can enjoy it without procreating.
 
B

bybee

New member
Buzzword said:
You imply I insulted you.
I did not.
Except to say that you do not have the right to deem others who are perhaps struggling more than you did as "whiners".

People choose to START.
They do not choose to become addicted, and once addicted any semblance of choice is out the window.

Until someone else intervenes (that's why they're called interventions, after all).

An addict doesn't "wallow".
A person who genuinely enjoys an activity deemed socially unacceptable "wallows" because he/she genuinely enjoys the activity whilst the rest of society tells him/her that he/she not only shouldn't enjoy the activity, they should stop immediately.

Example:
A young woman who enjoys sex, doesn't want to get married, yet has been indoctrinated to think that birth control is a sin.
She continues to have child after child, not because she wants to have children, but because she enjoys sex and has not been taught that she can enjoy it without procreating.
Click to expand...

A wallow is a wallow! A romp is a romp! A diversion is a diversion!
Whining is not singing!
Engaging in activities that are harmful to your own or other's (second hand smoke) health and expecting other's to pay to bail you out is a self-indulgent WALLOW!
A young woman who enjoys sex can go to the North Pole on her back for all I care! But then, the diseases and pregnancies begin and the tax payers pick up the tab!
 
Ardima

Ardima

New member
PureX said:
Except that by definition, addiction means that we have lost the power of choice. I know this is impossible for people who have not experienced addiction to understand, but being addicted means being unable to stop, even when you want to.

Also, it's important to understand that one of the most imposing characteristics of an addiction is a blind obsession with the substance we're addicted to. Alcoholics, for example, simply cannot comprehend alcohol or it's effects, reasonably. So that their "choices" become the choices of a person who is not capable of thinking reasonably about their own behavior.
Of course. YOU can see that, and so can everyone around the alcoholic who is not also alcoholic, but the alcoholic himself will either simply not see them, or they will not register in his mind as a real consequence. Believe me, I have been there many, many times. And it's inexplicable how the mind simply erases all cognizance of reason and proportion when it comes to the consequences of getting drunk, when you're alcoholic. To an alcoholic, getting drunk is far more than a desire that he can reasonably turn down. It's a blinding obsession that owns him, and will destroy him and everything he loves. It's like living in a nightmare where some evil force inside you just takes over.
Alcoholism is not an "excuse", it's an illness. I know it's much more fun and much easier to just blame the addict and then wash your hands of him/her in the resulting righteous indignation that you feel, but the sad truth is that addictions are a form of mental and physical illness that we still have not found a cure for. And it's terminal. It kills millions and millions of human beings every year, while it does untold harm to their families and to those who love them.

It's a very difficult affliction to understand, and even more frustrating to have to deal with, which often causes a lot of anger and resentment. But it is what it is, and blaming and washing our hands isn't going to help anyone. We need to face it for what it is and try and understand how it works, before we can ever hope to find a way through it, to healing.
Click to expand...
 
Buzzword

Buzzword

New member
bybee said:
A wallow is a wallow! A romp is a romp! A diversion is a diversion!
Whining is not singing!
Engaging in activities that are harmful to your own or other's (second hand smoke) health and expecting other's to pay to bail you out is a self-indulgent WALLOW!
A young woman who enjoys sex can go to the North Pole on her back for all I care! But then, the diseases and pregnancies begin and the tax payers pick up the tab!
Click to expand...

Ending every sentence with an exclamation point does nothing but make you appear to be ranting and raving instead of engaging in calm discussion.

Especially when you seem to be attempting to make this a politically-motivated discussion when it is not.

“Very often in everyday life one sees that by losing one's temper with someone who has already lost his, one does not gain anything but only sets out upon the path of stupidity. He who has enough self-control to stand firm at the moment when the other person is in a temper, wins in the end. It is not he who has spoken a hundred words aloud who has won; it is he who has perhaps spoken only one word.”
-Hazrat Inayat Khan
 
B

bybee

New member
Buzzword said:
Ending every sentence with an exclamation point does nothing but make you appear to be ranting and raving instead of engaging in calm discussion.

Especially when you seem to be attempting to make this a politically-motivated discussion when it is not.

“Very often in everyday life one sees that by losing one's temper with someone who has already lost his, one does not gain anything but only sets out upon the path of stupidity. He who has enough self-control to stand firm at the moment when the other person is in a temper, wins in the end. It is not he who has spoken a hundred words aloud who has won; it is he who has perhaps spoken only one word.”
-Hazrat Inayat Khan
Click to expand...
Well then, apparently you have won something? I didn't know that I was engaged in a contest.
My point of view is merely my point of view.:confused:
 
Ardima

Ardima

New member
Sorry, I clicked the wrong button and posted without commenting on the quote.

Anyway, addiction is not an illness, it is a person becoming a complete slave to their sin. Yes its blinding to the person toward the substance because that is what sin does...

That being said it is the same way with sin in general. We couldn't make the choice to break free from that addiction even if we wanted too. It is only through Gods grace that he draws (literally drags) us out the servitude of sin. Sure, many people have "relapses" in sin, but anybody who has kicked a habit knows that many times the best way to kick a habit is to replace it with a new one. This is so with sin. Once God drags us out of sin's grip we need to become addicted to Him and His nature in order to reduce the risk of relapse.

Saying that addiction to any substance or specific sin is a disease is trying to justify one's actions and place the blame on basic human nature. I am not saying it is easy to kick a habit, and most people cannot do it in the first few tries, but minimizing the responsibility of a person's actions while caught in an addiction by calling it a disease does no good for the addict or those trying to help them.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
bybee said:
Alrighty then! You pompous, smug, judgmental, self-righteous relativist! I am a person who conquered a two pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey! It took me two years to stop having "nic fits" but I hung in there. At the time my husband was a flaming alcoholic almost destroyed the family. Life was stressful. My oldest daughter was a drug addict and my third daughter was working on becoming the alcoholic that she is to this day.
Then I became addicted to the slots. Oh how I loved those slots. In fact, I still love those slots! However, I will never go near a casino again. I conquered that addiction too. I don't like making myself poor or making myself unhealthy. I also don't like the idea that other people will have to take over and make decisions for me. I don't want other people to go without so that I can SIN! Self-indulgence is sin. Whining, sniveling, can't get enough of other peoples time, talent and money sin!
I still eat too much but, I'm working on it.
Click to expand...
Bad habits are not the same as an addiction.

But as I 'oh-so-pompously' stated, it's very difficult for someone who has not experienced an addiction, themselves, to understand how powerless the addict really is, and why. From the outside, their behavior is infuriatingly inexplicable, and they're full of nonsensical and phony excuses. But in the end, there is no reason for their obsessive, self-destructive behavior except that they are addicted. And that's the way people behave when they become addicts. It's the nature of the disease.
 
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