Theology Club: Classical Theism - R. Muller Paper

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Totton Linnet

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If adobe crashes your computer then something is amiss with it and not the reader. You can also open pdf files with other pdf readers. Google docs, Foxitsoftware, immediately come to mind. Summarizing will not do justice to Muller's cogent thoughts so I fear explanations of things explained. I would also like to disabuse the habits of some hereabouts that refuse to work with the original thoughts of others.


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Totton Linnet

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I don't doubt that there summat amiss with my old beat up pc, my oft kicking it has not improved it's performance :(
 

Ktoyou

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AMR,
This is really something to comprehend. The kicker is, the righteous knowing of God’s immutability may validate both OT and the settled view, as I am seeing it at this tried hour.

I will attempt to read it fresh, to point on how I have come to see these unusual connections.

It strikes me, those with Grace, have the guidance of the Holy Sprint and with that guidance, we receive all we need to receive, which in the flesh, shall suffice. I do believe there will be a time we shall all come together, on a far distant plane and eye/perceive the many paths taken once we come into the Body of Christ in this life.
 

godrulz

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I don't see why an Open Theist could not respond/interact.

I am still reading 'Beyond the Bounds' and have not found it persuasive against Open Theism for Calvinism. I would agree with it in parts when my fellow Open Theists are off track on a detail.

Without reading the link yet, I would say that even classical theists are rethinking impassibility, immutability (weak vs strong; i.e. God changes in some ways, but not in other wasy), etc.

As well, there is no one version of 'classical theism'. Most just assume that their brand of theology is THE classical theism, yet everyone claims the title despite different beliefs, histories, etc.

The history of dogma is not black and white since a systematic, infallible theology book did not fall from the sky (an inspired Word of God was given, but it is subject to translation/interpretation).
 

COLA76

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I don't see why an Open Theist could not respond/interact.

I am still reading 'Beyond the Bounds' and have not found it persuasive against Open Theism for Calvinism. I would agree with it in parts when my fellow Open Theists are off track on a detail.

Without reading the link yet, I would say that even classical theists are rethinking impassibility, immutability (weak vs strong; i.e. God changes in some ways, but not in other wasy), etc.

As well, there is no one version of 'classical theism'. Most just assume that their brand of theology is THE classical theism, yet everyone claims the title despite different beliefs, histories, etc.

The history of dogma is not black and white since a systematic, infallible theology book did not fall from the sky (an inspired Word of God was given, but it is subject to translation/interpretation).

I read "Beyond the Bounds" a couple years ago. It struck me as an unconvincing, repetitive, and angry collection.
 

godrulz

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I read "Beyond the Bounds" a couple years ago. It struck me as an unconvincing, repetitive, and angry collection.

It is basically pro-Calvinistic, failing to see the problems with its own views and not fully understanding the strength of Open Theism.
 

COLA76

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The following paper by a well-known church historian has been quoted as being one item no open theist has adequately responded to:

http://tinyurl.com/9cofpnd

I am genuinely interested in your cogent responses.

thanks,


[url=http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/H/Hodge,%20A%20A%20-%20Outlines%20of%20Systematic%20Theology.pdf]AMR[/URL]

My response to Muller's paper is somewhat limited by not having read Pinnock's piece which the paper is in response to. With that said, I will make a few comments.

I agree with Muller that the Christian concept of immutability is divergent from Greek philosophical concept. The Christian concept indeed is not static in the way that the Greek concept is, but it is not as active as it seems on face value or as Muller suggests. I will expound on what I mean later. Muller focuses on the immutability of God's ethics, attributes, and nature. None of which is challenged by the majority of open theists, and I can hardly believe Pinnock did so in his piece (being familiar with his work), although I cannot be certain.

Muller objects to Pinnock's assertion that classical theists are arbitrary in their assignments of figurative language. He uses Mal. 3: 6-7 to make his point that recognition of figurative language is not based on a philosophical commitment, but logical necessity based on Scripture. Muller states that concept of God “returning” to his people cannot be taken to mean God has physically moved away from his people and with return, but to return is a reference to God’s immutable ethic and promise to be with his people when they are in the correct relationship with him. I have no idea why Muller uses this verse as an example as I don’t think that anyone would argue about the context of this verse. It would have been much more beneficial to engage Exodus 32:14 or Genesis 6:6. Nonetheless, he states that since his exegesis of the above verse shows the change is in the creature and that God’s immutable ethic is necessary the same sort of necessary immutability can be said of the entirety of God’s being. This is all well and good, but it misses the point.

The open theist position is not that the “divine being” changes in any sense. God’s nature, attributes, and morality are all constant. There is no fear in uncertainty of God because his promises and purposes remain constant. In this sense, Muller does not seem to have a good grasp on the objection against classical immutability. However, Muller does extend his critique to include divine knowledge, which is where the difference comes to a head.

Muller says that the implication of repentance verses is that there is an immutability of divine knowledge. He presents this as a natural conclusion and does not elaborate. However, Mal. 3: 6-7 does not seem to imply such divine foreknowledge and Exodus 32:14 and Genesis 6:6 seem to offer a direct challenge to the notion. He continues by saying that if we do not hold to God’s immutable knowledge then we are left with a God who “really did not know where Adam was”, who “really had to go down to Sodom to find out for himself what went on there”, and “invented the incarnation as a hasty response to a fall that he did not forsee”.

The trouble with these statements is that they need not follow from an open view of divine foreknowledge. The open view proposes that God has complete past and present knowledge. As such, God would very well have known where Adam was and what was going on in Sodom. Many versions of the open view also propose that God knows all possible future events. If this is the case, God would have known from the beginning that the fall was possible, even probable, and the incarnation need to be characterized as a “hasty response”. Secondly, there is no reason that the incarnation be inseparable from atonement. There is no reason why God may not have always planned on the incarnation regardless of the state of humanity. The incarnation, as “the center of and meaning of all history”, could very well still have been planned from the foundation of the world and be consistent with an open view.

The real underlying issue is the necessary link of timelessness and the absolute immutability of God. Muller does not address the issue head on, but it is clearly a presupposition. This is most notable in his appeal to Victorinus who proposed that God was eternally active, yet careful to state that while all change is activity, not all activity is change. Muller does not elaborate on this distinction, but stresses that God’s activity is an immutable activity. It is this eternal, immutable activity that those with an open view object to. Such a conception of divine activity seems to not really be activity but static being. If God’s activity is eternal, his activity then must be coeternal with God. If God’s activity is coeternal then it is not an act of volition, but wrapped up in God’s being. There is no intention in this sort of activity since there was no opportunity for God to have thought to create and implement that desire. God is trapped by his own eternal action rather than free and sovereign. Additionally, the distinction between Creator and creature is at least blurred and likely nonexistent. To construe the incarnation is this light implies that Jesus’ eternal purpose is to reconcile humanity’s sin. If this is true, Jesus’ nature is dependent on human sin. The second person of the Trinity could not have an identity unrelated to human sin. By the same token, sin must exist for Jesus to exist. A troublesome thought to say the least.

Lastly, Muller insists that the incarnation does not imply any change in God at all. He repeatedly states that God does not change since the incarnation is a manifestation of God’s immutable purpose. I gladly admit that God has always had the purpose to guide humanity into maturity and draw humanity into the divine life. However, I cannot agree with Muller that reconciliation is an immutable purpose. To do so is to admit that sin is inherent to God’s existence.
 

Nang

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COLA76 said:
I cannot agree with Muller that reconciliation is an immutable purpose. To do so is to admit that sin is inherent to God’s existence.

What?

Sin is inherent only to the created sons of God who Jesus Christ has reconciled back into favor with God.

That is the immutable purpose of the grace and gospel of God!

Nang
 

COLA76

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What?

Sin is inherent only to the created sons of God who Jesus Christ has reconciled back into favor with God.

That is the immutable purpose of the grace and gospel of God!

Nang

Sin is not inherent to God or humanity, but it is an actuality for humanity.

The issue is not that if God is immutable or unwavering in redemptive purpose. The issue is if God is eternally or timelessly so. If God, specifically Jesus, has always been unchangeably redemptive as a part of his nature or divine identity then his nature and identity is eternally dependent on humanity and its sin. This implies that there could not have been a time that God was independent from creation. Creation was not a free act in a meaningful sense, only a manifestation of the unchangeable divine nature and purpose.

Those with an open view find these implications troubling and contrary to a free and sovereign God. Instead, I would propose that God freely chose to create out of God's own divine desire to share love and be in union with it. When humanity choose to break that union God began a redemptive mission consistent with God's inherent divine attributes of love, justice, mercy, righteousness, etc.
 

Desert Reign

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Those with an open view find these implications troubling and contrary to a free and sovereign God. Instead, I would propose that God freely chose to create out of God's own divine desire to share love and be in union with it. When humanity choose to break that union God began a redemptive mission consistent with God's inherent divine attributes of love, justice, mercy, righteousness, etc.

I agree. However consider from the viewpoint of the Calvinist what is surely a valid concern is that God seems to suffer from a loss of control if salvation is merely a contingent act in response to an unplanned contingency. He seems to be a God who merely reacts to situations rather than being the God of divine providence.

I would rather suggest that sin was the inevitable consequence of the creation of an open world and this is why creation was such an act of love. It was inevitable when God created the world (man in particular) he would need to prove that the world was sustained by wisdom and by sacrifice, not by power. Jesus was the proof that God meant what he said when he said 'not by might, not by power but my spirit'.

Thus, the world can be seen not as something that is independent of God but something which, in its own openness still requires his sustaining love and grace.
 

Guyver

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I am genuinely interested in your cogent responses.

thanks,

Biblical immutability seems to be directly related to God's decision to save people by grace through faith.

Especially emphasized in the only place in the Bible I see the word used. Hebrews 6.

"For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."

I still don't see how this confirms or disputes Calvanism....nor am I really sure exactly what point you're making or what type of discussion you're after.

The notion of Calvanism? Namely that everyone's fate is predetermined?

If God chose to save the "heirs of promise" by grace through faith - and that grace is available to all who call upon the name of the Lord, or who hear and freely receive - why is it so hard to see that it was the Body of Christ who was predetermined, and that the individual members are those who have believed and received?

This view of mine accomodates both freewill and predeterminism and I don't see the issue.

Neither do I see the importance of comparing Christian ideals to pagan philosophy as your link does.
 

DFT_Dave

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DFT_Dave

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You read the article and then respond from the Open perspective as convincingly best you can.

It's too long for a single thread. I think AMR should tell us what he thinks has not been adequately delt with by open theists in this article so we keep the thread focused on that point.

--Dave
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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How can we make a cogent response when you have not made a cogent point or presented a cogent question.

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Huh?

I asked for clear opinions on the paper. I also stated I was genuinely interested in them. I have read them all to date and appreciate the time taken to prepare them. Hence, I have met the self-imposed burden of my OP.

I am interested in anyone willing to think critically about an overlooked paper written by one of our most important living historical theologians. Other than Cola76, who clearly took the time to digest the paper on some level, the bulk of the responses are more of the usual wave-offs of the open theist who dismiss anything that is opposed to their own presupositions without any serious consideration of another's views.

The paper is not an easy read. It requires deep thinking. If the reader thinks it is simply an anti-openist screed, they have seriously missed the point of the author.

Dave, in direct response to your question, I will note that the "cogent" points have been made by the author of the paper. Not all posts are throw downs for battle. And frankly, the rules of this particular forum, prevent the same. I need not, nor am I obliged to add anything more. Now having said as much, I will most likely weigh in with my own perspective at a later date because I take my own advice. I am thinking carefully about the paper. I have re-typed it, outlined it, composed thoughts about the author's points, and am working through them carefully. But why does any of that matter when all I have asked is for those interested to read the paper and offer their assessment?

So Dave, if you, or anyone else does not want to read this paper, caring not to forming and sharing a public opinion, or those simply hoping another will do the heavy-lifting for them, well, then, you all have my sincere thanks for stopping by. :e4e: To such persons, if I may, borrowing with tongue-in-cheek from a recently ignominiously dug up King, I would simply say, "My kingdom for a serious open theist thinker". ;)

AMR
 
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DFT_Dave

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Huh?

I asked for clear opinions on the paper. I also stated I was genuinely interested in them. I have read them all to date and appreciate the time taken to prepare them. Hence, I have met the self-imposed burden of my OP.

I am interested in anyone willing to think critically about an overlooked paper written by one of our most important living historical theologians. Other than Cola76, who clearly took the time to digest the paper on some level, the bulk of the responses are more of the usual wave-offs of the open theist who dismiss anything that is opposed to their own presupositions without any serious consideration of another's views.

The paper is not an easy read. It requires deep thinking. If the reader thinks it is simply an anti-openist screed, they have seriously missed the point of the author.

Dave, in direct response to your question, I will note that the "cogent" points have been made by the author of the paper. Not all posts are throw downs for battle. And frankly, the rules of this particular forum, prevent the same. I need not, nor am I obliged to add anything more. Now having said as much, I will most likely weigh in with my own perspective at a later date because I take my own advice. I am thinking carefully about the paper. I have re-typed it, outlined it, composed thoughts about the author's points, and am working through them carefully. But why does any of that matter when all I have asked is for those interested to read the paper and offer their assessment?

So Dave, if you, or anyone else does not want to read this paper, caring not to forming and sharing a public opinion, or those simply hoping another will do the heavy-lifting for them, well, then, you all have my sincere thanks for stopping by. :e4: To such persons, if I may, borrowing with tongue-in-cheek from a recently ignominiously dug up King, I would simply say, "My kingdom for a serious open theist thinker". ;)

AMR

I read the paper, well written. I see what you want and I will get to work on it--thanks.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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Wonderful. Looking forward to reading it, too.

AMR

Richard A. Muller's proposition
"I remain convinced that the structure of classical theism and its synthesis of faith and reason stands the test and survives the critique. Incarnation and the divine immutability are not contraries."

Plato Dichotomy
"We must distinguish between that which is and never becomes from that which is always becoming but never is."

Aristotle's Dichotomy
"There is something that is always being moved [by] something that moves things without being moved."

The architects of Natural theology, Plato and Aristotle "reasoned" the existence of a God that is the opposite of "nature". Philosophical deity is absolutely transcendent and can never be immanent.

They proposed that a world of movement and change must find its origin--Plato's Demiurge, or the cause of its movement and
change--Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, in that which is immovable and changeless. That which is temporal and changes cannot exist without that which is eternally unchanged.

The big question
Neither Plato's Demiurge nor Aristotle's Unmoved Mover could incarnate, "become flesh". So, how does classic theology's "divine immutability" accomplish this task?

Augustine's Synthesis
The answer lies in classic theology's synthesis of Greek philosophy (a.k.a. natural theology) and Biblical Revelation, or as Muller puts it, "synthesis of faith and reason". A synthesis incorporates a thesis with its antithesis to form a new thesis. The God of who cannot enter the world combined with the God who can becomes the God who can both change and not change. This "new" God is worshipped at an alter that requires a sacrifice. That sacrifice would be "logic", the laws of rational thought.

Next post I'll show how Muller equivocates between what immutable means and does not mean, how God seems to change but does not really change, etc.

--Dave
 
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