ECT For those who believe God requires works to be or stay saved

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brewmama said:
Yep. All of these are a work.
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You are just a "worker bee" that thinks that you can earn something from God based on yourself.
Rom 4:1-5 KJV What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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God clearly and unequivocally CONTRASTS works and faith here.

P.S. God is NOT and never will be in your debt.
 
brewmama

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Right Divider said:
You are just a "worker bee" that thinks that you can earn something from God based on yourself.
Rom 4:1-5 KJV What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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God clearly and unequivocally CONTRASTS works and faith here.

P.S. God is NOT and never will be in your debt.
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You have no idea what I think, since you ignore what I say. Paul is referring to the Judaic law when he talks about works. There is no dilemma or contradiction in the faith/works scripture, it is manmade by some out there Protestants, a lot of you among them. You (collective you) seem to have no idea how idiotic your arguments sound, and you cannot even accept that the act of faith is in itself a work. Have fun miring yourself in a ridiculous and meaningless argument.
 
Bright Raven

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brewmama said:
You have no idea what I think, since you ignore what I say. Paul is referring to the Judaic law when he talks about works. There is no dilemma or contradiction in the faith/works scripture, it is manmade by some out there Protestants, a lot of you among them. You (collective you) seem to have no idea how idiotic your arguments sound, and you cannot even accept that the act of faith is in itself a work. Have fun miring yourself in a ridiculous and meaningless argument.
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Scripture is simple.

Ephesians 2:8-9 New Living Translation (NLT)

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
 
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brewmama said:
No it isn't.
Faith by itself is in fact a work. This was never an issue for 1500 years, and is something Protestants just made up from whole cloth. Never was an issue in the East.
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Faith is not a 'work'.

Faith
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*yes, I just threw in some Game of Thrones
 
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brewmama said:
You have no idea what I think, since you ignore what I say. Paul is referring to the Judaic law when he talks about works.
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That could not be more wrong. Paul is using the example of Abraham BEFORE he received the law. Romans 4:3 is referring to Gen 15:6.
Gen 15:6 KJV And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
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Paul AGAIN refers to this in Galatians 3:6, and if you continue to read that passage you'll see that this faith counted as righteousness came 430 years BEFORE THE LAW.
Gal 3:17 KJV And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
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brewmama said:
There is no dilemma or contradiction in the faith/works scripture, it is manmade by some out there Protestants, a lot of you among them. You (collective you) seem to have no idea how idiotic your arguments sound, and you cannot even accept that the act of faith is in itself a work. Have fun miring yourself in a ridiculous and meaningless argument.
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Spoken like a true know-nothing. I know that I have no "dilemma", because I understand the place of both faith and works.

As you were shown, the scripture CONTRASTS works and faith in regard to our justification before God. Stick with YOUR works if you like, but that is going to end badly for you.
 
brewmama

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Bright Raven said:
Scripture is simple.

Ephesians 2:8-9 New Living Translation (NLT)

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
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:duh: Miss the point much? No one disagrees with the fact that grace saves, it's a gift, we can't boast...etc etc.

Scripture is simple : Faith without works is dead.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
Bright Raven

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brewmama said:
:duh: Miss the point much? No one disagrees with the fact that grace saves, it's a gift, we can't boast...etc etc.

Scripture is simple : Faith without works is dead.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
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Yeah, but you do not believe that grace alone saves. You think works are necessary when verse 9 of Ephesians two tells you they are not.

If you are before the throne that you speak of, you are in big trouble. That would be the great white throne where unbelievers are judged. Believers have already been judged at the judgement seat of Christ
 
brewmama

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Right Divider said:
That could not be more wrong. Paul is using the example of Abraham BEFORE he received the law. Romans 4:3 is referring to Gen 15:6.
Gen 15:6 KJV And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
​
Paul AGAIN refers to this in Galatians 3:6, and if you continue to read that passage you'll see that this faith counted as righteousness came 430 years BEFORE THE LAW.
Gal 3:17 KJV And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
​
Spoken like a true know-nothing. I know that I have no "dilemma", because I understand the place of both faith and works.

As you were shown, the scripture CONTRASTS works and faith in regard to our justification before God. Stick with YOUR works if you like, but that is going to end badly for you.
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Of course Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness, again, no one is contradicting that. He is being used as an example of how the law cannot save people. That's the point. Y'all really don't get the whole overall Bible in totality do you?

The most laughable aspect of this conversation is how you regard people who have enough faith to believe that there is a God, and a Christ, and heaven, and salvation, that they try to be good and do good works, and what God asks, and you count that as something that is going to end badly! Unbelievable!! :shocked:
 
brewmama

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Bright Raven said:
Yeah, but you do not believe that grace alone saves. You think works are necessary when verse 9 of Ephesians two tells you they are not.

If you are before the throne that you speak of, you are in big trouble. That would be the great white throne where unbelievers are judged. Believers have already been judged at the judgement seat of Christ
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Right. I'm sure Jesus is going to say: "You did good things! Shame on you!"
 
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Bright Raven said:
Yeah, but you do not believe that grace alone saves. You think works are necessary when verse 9 of Ephesians two tells you they are not.

If you are before the throne that you speak of, you are in big trouble. That would be the great white throne where unbelievers are judged. Believers have already been judged at the judgement seat of Christ
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What a lot of hogwash.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Future.

LA
 
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turbosixx said:
We are to love God and love our neighbor, that covers what is expected of us. As we learn God's will and mature it becomes easier to know how we are to live for God.

Heb. 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

There is no punch list of all the things we should do like the OT but here is some showing what's acceptable and what's not.

Gal. 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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Unless we are this, we can never know:

26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
Luke 14:26-29 (ESV)
 
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turbosixx said:
Eph. 2 says 9 not as a result of works, it doesn't say without works.

The result of works is perfected or complete faith.

James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

46"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
faith without works is dead
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Arminians can't be sure of thier salvation so they invented man made 'works precedes faith' so they can have something to boast about
 
journey

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The only works that God will accept for Salvation or to maintain Salvation were completed most perfectly by Jesus Christ at the Cross. Don't confuse yourself by mixing law and grace.

Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 
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journey said:
The only works that God will accept for Salvation or to maintain Salvation were completed most perfectly by Jesus Christ at the Cross. Don't confuse yourself by mixing law and grace.

Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
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You are confusing redemption with salvation.
 
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