Rev. 3:5 implies names can be blotted out from the Book of Life. Is that how you interpret that as well?
Theology Club: Did God know that man would sin?
- Thread starter Angel4Truth
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
Not at all.
Revelation 3:5 is the Lord's promise that those named in His book will NOT be blotted out.
This verse is not a threat, but a promise.
Nang
Actually it states that the names never will be. There is never an implicit statement that they could be, nor any other implied statement as such.
I agree it's a promise. But how is it a promise if there's no real possiblity Jesus cannot keep it?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The promise is based upon the surety that Christ can keep it.
What is the surety?
Jesus Christ resurrected from death to be the surety of life for all those named in His Book of Life.
In other words, Christ would not be able to keep it had he not been resurrected? Is that what you're saying?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
There would be no everlasting life for humanity, if Christ had not resurrected from death.
Entertaining any other speculative thoughts regarding this truth, is nothing but a gross denial of the gospel.
Nang
Well if you can answer them then please answer them.
Your judgment of me here is wrong brother. The article I wrote about the foundation I wrote about 10 years ago. For the last 5 or 6 years I have debated on another board the total goodness of God and about 1 year ago a brother on that board asked me if I held believe in open theism. I goggled open theism because I had never heard of it before and read a little about it and told that brother that it sounded like some of the things I believed. About 6 months ago I decided to look more closely at open theism and bought 2 book on it, 1 by Sanders and 1 by Boyd. I still see thing a little different then they do but all in all you could say I hold to the open view.
The point being, is that I did not try to FIT those scriptures to an open view, it was the other way around, it was because I saw those scriptures the way I do that helped lead me to the open view.
That makes no sense, if God thought they would reverance His son how could He foreknow before the old earth that Jesus was slain from that foundation.
God wanted obedience NOT sacrifice. See post #18 of this thread.
Because they were those who had laboured with him.
Well Jesus seemed to believe God did not think it was going to happen.
Of course.
The point is not about “entertaining speculative thoughts,” the point is about understanding the point of your post #85. And that’s what I’m trying to do, understand your point in post #85.
If the Book of Life has permanent ink, so to speak, where’s the power in the promise that names won’t be erased? Sounds like the names can be erased.
zippy2006
New member
The standard English translation claims that the book of life belongs to the lamb that was slain, and this is a reading that makes more sense to me than your interpretation. I don't even understand how a book entitled "The book of life of the lamb slain" makes sense?
And the Lamb (Christ) as the author of the book of life makes perfect sense, since in the OT we see that God is the author.
zippy2006
New member
That makes sense to me DR, good point. :thumb: I will consult a scripture scholar first, but your point seems valid and it seems to deny the OP.
Granted, it does raise another problem that Totton tried to address: the names were written at the foundation of the world. I understand that your interpretation avoided that problem but I don't believe that particular aspect of your translation is very strong. I don't think John was claiming that the names get added as time goes on and eventually catch everyone.
It doesn't say that.
It makes mention of those whose names have not been written since the foundation of the world; i.e. all those who have come into the world since and have never had their names written in the Book of Life.
That's correct. The text doesn't talk about anything happening 'before' the foundation of the world. This applies whether in reference to Jesus dying or to people's names being written down. So Zippy, I appreciate your qualified approval of my post but if you think I have a good point in relation to the Lamb being slain, then surely you would agree that the same point applies to the names being written?
The ambiguity in the text is not to do with whether anything was done before or after the foundation of the world. Whatever was done was done from the foundation of the world and onwards. It has to do with whether it was the Lamb who was slain or the names that were written 'from' the foundation of the world. It is certainly possible to read the text as meaning that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and onwards as some kind of continuous event but that is simply absurd (as well as refuted by a number of scriptures elsewhere) and the alternative that the book is the record book of all the names written from the foundation of the world and onwards is so meaningful as to eliminate the awkward alternative.
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The standard English reading shows, in Rev 17:8, that "from the foundation of the world" modifies "written in the book of life". So in Rev 13:8 which includes the phrase "of the lamb slain" but is otherwise the same message as 17:8, it seems to me we should conclude the same thing. It modifies "written in the book of life", just like 17:8; it doesn't modify "of the lamb slain." Therefore, one can't rightly conclude from 13:8 that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. He was slain once, when we witness the act in the first century.
Yes, for example Rom 5:6:
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<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
Gal 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
It really flies in the face of the obvious to assert that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
zippy2006
New member
It does say that. It says that everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will worship the beast. The ones who are not written are precisely the lost.
Why would I have to agree to both? I don't think they are both correct.
Reading the text to say "God had a book at the foundation of the world, and as time went on He wrote more and more names into it" is simply not what the text says. The text says the names were written at the foundation of the world.
zippy2006
New member
Right. That has nothing to do with your previous post where you claimed that the title of the book was "The Book of Life of the Lamb Slain." I was replying to that post, which I specifically quoted.
Hi, zip.
It has everything to do with my last post. That post showed how, as I see it, the verse can't be used to conclude that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, since "of the Lamb slain" seems to be part of the name of the book as opposed to being a statement about the lamb being slain from the foundation of the world.
Thanks,
Randy