toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should

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Ktoyou

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The organization of church government was shown clearly in Acts 20 and 1 Timothy.

These were the guys Timothy had picked according to the instruction of Paul. The Greek word interpreted 'bishop' is, also, translated 'overseer'.

Thus, we know that a city's church has a plurality of bishops.
The bishops were not, as individuals, autonomous, the bishop council was once they had been commended to God and the Word of God's grace.

Thus, they were supposed to watch each other. Specifically, they were supposed to make sure that none of their number started taking advantage of the sheep by becoming manually unproductive.

It takes only three years to prepare men to become bishops. Since they are productive in order to gain the giver's blessing, the have resources which must be distributed to the weak. That job is given to a person who is drafted by the congregation and overseen by overseers/bishops. The draftee becomes a deacon who, if proven to be faithful in small things, gets promoted.

When deacons are proven, they may be promoted into offices of deacons. The Greek word transliterated 'deacon' is, also, interpreted 'minister. A deaconry is a ministry.

It is natural that elders/bishops/overseers could be drafted for the deaconry. But, Peter says that they should not wait to be drafted.

So, you would like a nice communal church, which is episcopal, having independent Bishops overseeing Priests (ministers) and deacons?
 

elohiym

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toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should be organized?

Luke 22:25-27

25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


Matthew 23:8-12

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.


1Peter 5:2-3

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
 

Aner

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Valiant - Thanks - you got it about wrapped up. There are some members who are chosen to "lead" but they are to be servants in particular.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
I got the attempted analogy just fine. Unfortunately, your entire description of supposed Catholic teaching and discipleship is one gigantic straw man fallacy, and resembles the actual situation not one little bit. You're merely lazily stereotyping here, which says more about you than it possibly could about the Catholic faith.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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I'm only going by what you have said. You DO represent the Catholic Church, do you not?
 

Krsto

Well-known member
It no doubt appears that way to you, given that you fail to read the Scriptures through the lens of the Church's ancient teaching Tradition,
Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So if I read the scripture through this lens you speak of then non-sequiturs will actually seem to follow then I can come to conclusions not warranted from the scriptures I provide? Dude, hook me up with one of those lenses. I've always dreamed of turning my brain off and still being able to teach theology. Now if I could only get paid to do that . . .
 

Trumpetfolker

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Well, what I said was that the individual bishops were not autonomous. However, they composed an autonomous board with autonomous meaning responsible directly to God and the Word of His grace.
And ministers are the same as deacons.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The form would resemble the republic form of the U.S.

The U. S. republic was modeled after the Presbyterian form of government, including limitations on authority and separation of powers. James Madison, was the primary author of the U.S. Constitution. Madison studied under John Witherspoon at Princeton University. Witherspoon, a university president, was the only minister (Presbyterian), to sign the Declaration of Independence. At least fourteen signers of the Constitution were Presbyterians.

The form of the church, with Scripture references, is described here:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_standards/p395-form_presby_gov.html

A simple summary for those who are not interested in digging deeper is here:

http://sierraviewpca.org/2008/01/21/what-is-the-presbyterian-form-of-church-government/

Presbuteros, the Greek word meaning elder, is the source of the use of Presbyterian.

AMR
 

Ktoyou

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Well, what I said was that the individual bishops were not autonomous. However, they composed an autonomous board with autonomous meaning responsible directly to God and the Word of His grace.
And ministers are the same as deacons.

This depends on the denomination; some ministers hold the same capacity and position as priests.

What I was eluding to is the Episcopalian Church.
 

Ktoyou

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Yes, Presbyterians and Episcopalians both followed the 39 articles. I had family ancestry in both churches. Some Methodist later on; Vanderbilt University Divinity School was affiliated with the Methodist Episcopal Church South from 1875.
 

Lucky

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I see the local church as being a city-wide church governed by elders/bishops/overseers and deacons. Trumpet explains it really well so I won't even try.

I think the gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) are gifts distributed to members. These aren't governmental roles, they are skills certain people have. The list of gifts isn't a complete list, nor does each skill have an exact look to it, and there could be some overlap. The purpose of these gifts, however, is exact and well-defined (v12-13). I expect the elders and deacons to have a higher concentration of these gifts, but they are not limited to them. The worst thing you can do is squash all those gifts into one person and give him complete control over a local church. It'll work, and sometimes it works great, but it becomes just another cult of personality.

elohiym posted some important verses on the topic:
Luke 22:25-27, Matthew 23:8-12, 1Peter 5:2-3

In light of the Matthew passage... I will not call anyone "Pastor", "Pastor Timothy", "Father John", "Reverend Billy", etc. because I don't want to potentially build up that guy's pride. I will only go so far as to say, "this is John the pastor (to our church)" which is similar to "Paul the apostle (to the Gentiles)." If it isn't necessary to mention his gift I'll simply introduce him as a brother.

Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics. :D
 

jamie

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toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should be organized?

Paul outlined church hierarchy here:

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)​

This of course does not preclude men and women from serving others in their assembly in various ways. The word "minister" should be a verb, not a noun. Pastors should preach, ministers should minister, deacons should deke. They should be compensated for expenses, but not for service.

Jamie
 

Trumpetfolker

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I'm not talking denom. Denoms do not care what the Bible shows. Someone like David Jeremiah (maybe not him) said that we've found a better way of doing church then the way they did it on the New Testament. I'm just showing New Testament pattern according to which we are all made priests (forgivers of sins).
 

Cruciform

New member
Right! One flock. One shepherd, which is Jesus. Glad to see you affirm that we don't need a pope. :thumb:
Sure, all you pastors, youth ministers, and Sunday school teachers...you can just go ahead and go home now. No need for you, since Jesus is the "Chief Shepherd"! :doh:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

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I'm only going by what you have said. You DO represent the Catholic Church, do you not?
As already posted:
"...your entire description of supposed Catholic teaching and discipleship is one gigantic straw man fallacy, and resembles the actual situation not one little bit."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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