I NEVER KNEW YOU

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Nanja said:
The imperative, Ye must be born again, is only directed to Christ's Sheep,
for it is of necessity that every one of them shall experience New Birth in their lifetime,
when the Spirit imparts Spiritual Life to those Justified by Christ's Blood.

Rom. 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith / Believing on Christ is a Fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22.


Jesus spoke directly to Nicodemus, these words:

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


And the evidence that Nicodemus did become a Believer is indicated in:

John 19:38-40
v.38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews,
besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave.
He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. v.39 And there came also Nicodemus,
which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes,
about an hundred pound weight. v.40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it
in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

~~~~~
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Good Post!
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nanja said:
The imperative, Ye must be born again, is only directed to Christ's Sheep,
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No one is the Body of Christ is a "sheep" or "born again", but a new creature!

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Get your facts straight instead of rebelling against 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
heir said:
No one is the Body of Christ is a "sheep" or "born again", but a new creature!

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Get your facts straight instead of rebelling against 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
Click to expand...


Yeah, the Body of Christ Eph. 5:25 and the Sheep Christ died for John 10:11,15
are the Elect of God; they're One and the same!

You must first be Born from Above, delivered from spiritual death,
before you can comprehend the Truth of the scriptures 1 Cor 2:13.

It's something you have no control over, for that's why you're frustrated with the Truth
and remain in spiritual darkness 1 Cor 2:14.

But the Election of Grace were chosen by God Eph. 1:4-5 to Salvation
through Sanctification of the Spirit and Belief of the Truth 2 Thes. 2:13.

2Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to
his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

I know you don't See the difference.

~~~~~
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nanja said:
Yeah, the Body of Christ Eph. 5:25 and the Sheep Christ died for John 10:11,15
are the Elect of God; they're One and the same!
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Foolishness!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV

You must first be Born from Above, delivered from spiritual death,
before you can comprehend the Truth of the scriptures 1 Cor 2:13.
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One is no longer natural (1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV) and can be taught as the Holy Ghost teacheth comparing spiritual things with spiritual the moment they trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. When was that for you?

It's something you have no control over, for that's why you're frustrated with the Truth
and remain in spiritual darkness 1 Cor 2:14.
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2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV. The blinding by the god of this world happens AFTER one has believed not the glorious gospel of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV). This means that they must have had the opportunity to hear to begin with!

The righteousness of God is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
heir said:
Foolishness!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV

One is no longer natural (1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV) and can be taught as the Holy Ghost teacheth comparing spiritual things with spiritual the moment they trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. When was that for you?

2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV. The blinding by the god of this world happens AFTER one has believed not the glorious gospel of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV). This means that they must have had the opportunity to hear to begin with!

The righteousness of God is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).
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You don't believe the Gospel ! Tulip is the Gospel and reject it !
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Yeah ! Not one stated that Christ told some that He loved and died for Eph 5:25 that He Never knew them Matt 7:23 !
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Hi b57,
Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply--lots going on...

When you read those verses I listed:

Did you notice if any of them stated who God/Christ loved? (Ans: "the world" from John 3:16)

Did you notice if any of them stated who Christ came to save? (Ans: "the world" from John 3:17)

I'm sure you already know how Christ saves someone: by His death on the cross.

Did you notice who Christ came to give light to? (Ans: "everyone" from John 1:9)

Did you notice who did not know Christ? (Ans: "the world" from John 1:10 KJV. --it doesn't say here that Christ didn't know "the world", but that the world didn't know Christ. But this is getting pretty close to a single passage that says what you asked me to show.)

Did you notice what else it says in that same passage (not a "the world" verse, but I hope you will read some extra for context every now and then)? John 1:11 says "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." So even if you restrict "the world" in John 3:16-17 to His own, John 1:11 says they didn't receive Him.

Now, if "the world" means "everyone", then when He says to some, "I never knew you", then that fits what you asked me to show--that Jesus loved and gave His life for some, and then later told them "I never knew you".

If, instead, "the world" means only those who are His, then you can see from John 1:11 that even some who are His did not receive Him. And in John 1:12, He only gives the power to become sons of God to those that receive Him. I think you would agree that those who received Him and those He "knew" are one and the same, right?

So, I've proved it with scripture. Now you get to rebut my proof. Use scripture, or use other people's writings, or whatever you want. But saying I haven't proved it without any discussion about my proof would tell me that you have no interest in any discussion at all. Hopefully that's not the case.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Derf said:
Hi b57,
Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply--lots going on...

When you read those verses I listed:

Did you notice if any of them stated who God/Christ loved? (Ans: "the world" from John 3:16)

Did you notice if any of them stated who Christ came to save? (Ans: "the world" from John 3:17)

I'm sure you already know how Christ saves someone: by His death on the cross.

Did you notice who Christ came to give light to? (Ans: "everyone" from John 1:9)

Did you notice who did not know Christ? (Ans: "the world" from John 1:10 KJV. --it doesn't say here that Christ didn't know "the world", but that the world didn't know Christ. But this is getting pretty close to a single passage that says what you asked me to show.)

Did you notice what else it says in that same passage (not a "the world" verse, but I hope you will read some extra for context every now and then)? John 1:11 says "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." So even if you restrict "the world" in John 3:16-17 to His own, John 1:11 says they didn't receive Him.

Now, if "the world" means "everyone", then when He says to some, "I never knew you", then that fits what you asked me to show--that Jesus loved and gave His life for some, and then later told them "I never knew you".

If, instead, "the world" means only those who are His, then you can see from John 1:11 that even some who are His did not receive Him. And in John 1:12, He only gives the power to become sons of God to those that receive Him. I think you would agree that those who received Him and those He "knew" are one and the same, right?

So, I've proved it with scripture. Now you get to rebut my proof. Use scripture, or use other people's writings, or whatever you want. But saying I haven't proved it without any discussion about my proof would tell me that you have no interest in any discussion at all. Hopefully that's not the case.
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I read those verses, none of them stated that Christ told them He Loved and Gave Himself for, I never knew you !

Christ did know those He Loved and gave Himself for. He stated so right here Jn 10:14-15

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

That word know in Jn 10:14 is the greek word ginōskō and its the same word Christ used here Matt 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if Christ did know them when He died for them as His Sheep, but later tells them He NEVER KNEW them, He Lied ! Do you believe Christ Lied ?
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Absolutely, and all according to God's Will and Purpose!
God does not desire all men without exception to be saved Job 23:13-14; Dan. 4:35.

~~~~~
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Hi Nanja,
So you think that Job 23:13-14 and Dan 4:35, which say nothing about who God desires to be saved, are more useful in this discussion than 1 Tim 2:3-4, which tells us explicitly who God desires to be saved?

The only way for that to work is for us to re-interpret 1 Tim 2:4 so that "all men" means "some men (not all)". This seems to be a very dangerous precedent to set, that we take a verse from God's Holy Word and read it as exactly opposite of what it actually says.

On the other hand, if you take 1 Tim 2:3-4 at face value, and throw in how God made us--with the ability to love or not love Him, to follow or not follow His commands ("if you love me, keep my commandments")--it's not so hard to imagine that God willingly limits His purposes (as mentioned in the Job and Daniel passages) to include only saving those that actually believe in His son.
 
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Derf

Derf

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
I read those verses, none of them stated that Christ told them He Loved and Gave Himself for, I never knew you !

Christ did know those He Loved and gave Himself for. He stated so right here Jn 10:14-15

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

That word know in Jn 10:14 is the greek word ginōskō and its the same word Christ used here Matt 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if Christ did know them when He died for them as His Sheep, but later tells them He NEVER KNEW them, He Lied ! Do you believe Christ Lied ?
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This is an excellent post b57! You actually responded to what I wrote with pertinent scripture references and points, and not just a sound bite. I'm proud of you!!! I gave you rep points for that one!

And you asked a good question at the end, to keep the conversation going.

No I don't believe Christ lied. If Christ died for His sheep, does that mean He didn't die for anyone else? Let's say for just a minute that Christ really did die for the whole world ("the world" in so many passages), and let's say for just a minute that Jesus only wants sheep that come when He calls and that obey His voice.

Then, when it says in 1 Tim 2:3-4 that God desires all men to be saved, there's also a recognition that not all will be saved, and only those that are will be His sheep. To those others He will rightly say, "I never knew you."
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Derf said:
This is an excellent post b57! You actually responded to what I wrote with pertinent scripture references and points, and not just a sound bite. I'm proud of you!!! I gave you rep points for that one!

And you asked a good question at the end, to keep the conversation going.

No I don't believe Christ lied. If Christ died for His sheep, does that mean He didn't die for anyone else? Let's say for just a minute that Christ really did die for the whole world ("the world" in so many passages), and let's say for just a minute that Jesus only wants sheep that come when He calls and that obey His voice.

Then, when it says in 1 Tim 2:3-4 that God desires all men to be saved, there's also a recognition that not all will be saved, and only those that are will be His sheep. To those others He will rightly say, "I never knew you."
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You still haven't proved with scripture that Christ told them He loved and gave Himself for for Eph 5:25 ; John 10:14-15 that He Never knew them as He did these Matt 7:23 ! Do you believe Christ lied to them and at one time He did know them ? Yes or No ?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
derf

No I don't believe Christ lied. If Christ died for His sheep, does that mean He didn't die for anyone else?
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I am going by who He said He died for, His Sheep. Other than that is speculation, you have no scripture foundation for ! So you must believe He lied, or He just was ignorant to who He died for and knew ! For example, if He died for any others besides His Sheep, why would He not know them ?
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
derf



I am going by who He said He died for, His Sheep. Other than that is speculation, you have no scripture foundation for ! So you must believe He lied, or He just was ignorant to who He died for and knew ! For example, if He died for any others besides His Sheep, why would He not know them ?
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Here's the problem. You've completely glossed over the idea that Jesus could die for the whole world and also die for His sheep (since they are a subset of "the world"). His dying for His sheep is a special application of His dying--there's more that His sheep get from it than the world gets from it. I agree that His sheep are special in that way.

And yes, He would have to know the world--He knows everybody. But there's obviously something different about this "know". From the verse that started the discussion, there's a equating between "know" and obedience. Those he "never knew" are also those "who practice lawlessness". These are obviously those who don't love Him or keep His commandments.

I believe the reason you've glossed over this idea is that you already have it settled in your mind what these scriptures are saying rather than reading the scriptures for their intent. This is where our systems get in the way of our understanding. You seem to follow the calvinistic system, which ignores some scriptures in order to elevate others. I saw your post where you equated the gospel with TULIP.

Just as we should be careful not to interpret scripture the opposite of what it says, we should be careful that our system doesn't trump the scriptures. If we interpret all scripture according to a particular system, then we've read into it something that may not be there.

Can you read through the gospel (not TULIP, but the scripture) without interpreting the whole thing according to calvinism? It's hard, but try it and see if you get a better reading of the good news--not the news that we are saved by predestination, but the good news that Jesus died for the ungodly, for the world, for sinners, for those needing to be healed instead of those that don't need a doctor.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Derf said:
Here's the problem. You've completely glossed over the idea that Jesus could die for the whole world and also die for His sheep (since they are a subset of "the world"). His dying for His sheep is a special application of His dying--there's more that His sheep get from it than the world gets from it. I agree that His sheep are special in that way.

And yes, He would have to know the world--He knows everybody. But there's obviously something different about this "know". From the verse that started the discussion, there's a equating between "know" and obedience. Those he "never knew" are also those "who practice lawlessness". These are obviously those who don't love Him or keep His commandments.

I believe the reason you've glossed over this idea is that you already have it settled in your mind what these scriptures are saying rather than reading the scriptures for their intent. This is where our systems get in the way of our understanding. You seem to follow the calvinistic system, which ignores some scriptures in order to elevate others. I saw your post where you equated the gospel with TULIP.

Just as we should be careful not to interpret scripture the opposite of what it says, we should be careful that our system doesn't trump the scriptures. If we interpret all scripture according to a particular system, then we've read into it something that may not be there.

Can you read through the gospel (not TULIP, but the scripture) without interpreting the whole thing according to calvinism? It's hard, but try it and see if you get a better reading of the good news--not the news that we are saved by predestination, but the good news that Jesus died for the ungodly, for the world, for sinners, for those needing to be healed instead of those that don't need a doctor.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you have not proved your point that Christ tells them He loved and died for Eph 5:25; John 10:14-15 that He Never knew them as He did these Matt 7:23 ! I proved my points!
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nanja said:
Absolutely, and all according to God's Will and Purpose!
God does not desire all men without exception to be saved Job 23:13-14; Dan. 4:35.

~~~~~
Click to expand...
Stuck in Job and Daniel that are not even written to you? Don't you know that it's due time?!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

...

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Derf said:
Hi Nanja,
So you think that Job 23:13-14 and Dan 4:35, which say nothing about who God desires to be saved, are more useful in this discussion than 1 Tim 2:3-4, which tells us explicitly who God desires to be saved?

The only way for that to work is for us to re-interpret 1 Tim 2:4 so that "all men" means "some men (not all)". This seems to be a very dangerous precedent to set, that we take a verse from God's Holy Word and read it as exactly opposite of what it actually says.

On the other hand, if you take 1 Tim 2:3-4 at face value, and throw in how God made us--with the ability to love or not love Him, to follow or not follow His commands ("if you love me, keep my commandments")--it's not so hard to imagine that God willingly limits His purposes (as mentioned in the Job and Daniel passages) to include only saving those that actually believe in His son.
Click to expand...

What God desires, He performs Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Dop you reject this testimony of scripture ? Apparently you do !
 
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