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Thread: can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

  1. #31
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Announcing:

    Battle Royale IX




    Clete

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    Aimiel




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    WHACK-AI-MIEL




    Last edited by Sozo; August 12th, 2004 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #32
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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  3. #33
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  4. #34
    Over 750 post club c.moore's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    c. moore,

    Please ignore Aimiel! Post four may be the most idiotic thing I've seen anyone write on this subject.

    You have however gotten a hold a real super duper idiot with this mythology teacher! His conditions are unreasonable and probably intentionally so.

    Any extrabiblical evidence that exists will certainly have been seized upon and promoted by the Christian community for obvious reasons and conversely any such evidence would tend to be supressed or ignored by the nonchristian community so to demand that any evidence be presented by non christian sources is rediculous!

    However, the evidence that you present does not have to look like it came from a overtly Christian source. What I would do if I were you is to get Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. The information in it is presented in a way that is very easy to quote and use in debates where citing sources might be necessary. It is not necessary to tell this ding dong teaher that you got this information from a Christian book. All the evidence presented can stand totally on its own and is independantly verifiable without ever having to reference Mr. McDowell's volume.

    Another outstanding resource is Bob Enyart's Mount Moriah Video. It would give you tons of ammo but your silly teacher wouldn't give it the time of day because it's obviously produced by a Christian.

    Anyway, I hope this helps!

    God Bless!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I did get the book the case of Christ, I am still reading it.
    www.revivaldisco.com

    Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
    Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
    Evangelist c.moore

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    Over 750 post club c.moore's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

    C. Moore--Our job is to testify of His existence, to bear witness of Him.
    There are secular writings from that period which refer to Him, Josephus being one of them.

    The encyclopedia Britannica says much about Him. Check it out. They will also list sources, or a bibliography.

    That being said, however, we MUST remember that those kinds of testimonies will be in vain. No one can truly know He lived--and still does live--until He is pleased to manifest Himself to that person, and He does so through the gospel; through the Scripture, and the preaching of it.

    A person may research other sources concerning Him until they begin to believe that He did indeed walk upon the earth, but that level of belief is not the kind of acknowledgement that makes Him REAL to people. That comes only by the power of the Holy Spirit. So my answer to a person who wanted evidence would be, "My job as His ambassador is to declare Him to you. If He is pleased to make Himself known to you, He will do so through His Word and our witness concerning Him. If not, anything else will be in vain.
    this is what he wrote about Josephus.

    Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,


    "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
    “ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.?
    Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
    The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
    However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
    Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.

    the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic

    Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:

    "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).

    Africanus identifies this darkness (or eclipse) with the darkness surrounding Christ's death.

    Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator, wrote to the Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and said of Christians:

    "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." (Letters, 10:96).
    (This is propaganda rubbish that was written 112 years after by a so-called Christian writer).
    This passage confirms that early Christians worshipped Christ as God, rather than having the "Godhood" of Christ added as legend at a later date.

    The Talmud also records several references of Jesus. The ones of importance were compiled between 70 and 200 AD, during the so-called Tannatic Period. The most significant text is Sanhedrian 43a:

    "One the eve of Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!" (Babylonian Talmud) (This is not Jesus that they’re talking about, besides was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged? If he lived and was hanged then the Bible has it wrong, because the Bible claims that he was nailed to the cross. “For the message of the CROSS is follishness to those who are perishing…?
    It was a practice of the Jews as it was in that part of the world to have a man representing the man-god or a sheep sacrificed for the sins of the people at the end of the year or in times of great danger. They believed that their sins would perish with the dead animal or man. The name was usually Jeoud or Yeshu etc..
    “Among the Semites of Western Asia the king, in a time of national danger, sometimes gave his own son to die as a sacrifice for the people. Thus Philo of Byblus, in his work on the Jews, says: ‘It was an ancient custom in a crisis of great danger that the ruler of a city or nation should give his beloved son to die for the whole people, as a ransom offered to the avenging demons; and the children thus offered were slain with mystic rites. So Cronus, whom the Phonenicians called Israel, being king of the land and having an only-begotten son called Jeoud (for in the Phoenician tongue Jeoud signifies “only begotten?), dressed him in royal robes and sacrificed him upon an alter in a time of war, when the country was in great danger from the enemy.’ When the king of Moab was besieged by the Israelites and hard beset, he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.?(James Frazer, The Golden Bough).

    This passage confirms the crucifixion, the time it occurred, and the fact that Jesus was accused of sorcery in regards to His miracles.

    Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian, wrote to his son Serapion sometime between the late first and early third century and said:

    "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagorans? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given." (British Museum, Syriac ms, add. 14, 658; cited in Habermas, 200).(nonsense)

    Besides these manuscripts, there are many other hinted at by other manuscripts. The Acts of Pontius Pilate are refereed to by Justin Martyr in 150(150 is 150 years too late), and by Tertullian in 200. Justin Martyr wrote:

    "And the _expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in his hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon his vesture, and they that crucified him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain from the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." (First Apology, 35).

    Obviously, Martyr would not have referred to a book that didn't exist, or to a passage that didn't exist in a book, since he was writing a defense of Christ.

    Phlegon's Chronicles are also referred to. He is cited by Origen (4:455) as saying, "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails." He also mentioned "the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquake which took place" (Origen, Contra Celsus, 14). Julius Africanus confirms the same passages.(These people lived too late to have any first hand knowledge of a Jesus, therefore not credible).

    The resulting, non-biblical passages show us the following points, as summarized by Norman Geisler:

    "(1) Jesus was from Nazareth; (2) he lived a wise and virtuous life; (3) he was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king; (4) he was believed by his disciples to have been raised from the dead three days later; (5) his enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called 'sorcery'; (6) his small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading even as far as Rome; (7) his disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshipped Christ as Divine. This picture confirms the view of Christ presented in the New Testament Gospels." (Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics). (These a are all typical Cristian arguments. Unreal).
    www.revivaldisco.com

    Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
    Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
    Evangelist c.moore

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    Over 750 post club c.moore's Avatar
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    Re: proof tasking......

    Originally posted by freelight

    Hi c.moore and all,


    Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

    Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whole compendium of 'proof').
    As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
    Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

    One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes all its 'stories'). What if the meaning and value we place on these is self-imposed? Lots to explore here.

    With faith there is only the substance of what is hoped for.....that being the evidence of a potential/actual reality that is invisible. Faith calls one to move beyond the sense(even intellectual) realm and seize/apprehend a spirit-reality/dimension of being. A person who says, 'Jesus is real to me' is speaking either by belief, experience or both...but its confirmation is always subjective based upon indidivual belief.

    One may want to consider what has conditioned your teachers 'beliefs' and makes them different from your 'beliefs'(research the conditionings). Asides from any obejective historical evidence.....we are stark naked only with our beliefs/values/experience.



    paul
    This is the problem he had no belief system.

    he only goes by the knowing system and facts and proofs.

    he mention about knowing is better than believing, and if you know something there is no need for believing.

    what do you think about that?
    www.revivaldisco.com

    Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
    Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
    Evangelist c.moore

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    Over 750 post club c.moore's Avatar
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    Originally posted by granite1010

    Moore,

    There is no archeological evidence that I'm aware of "proving" Christ's existence. The jury's still out when it comes to the Jesus Box and Turin Shroud. Josephus's references to Jesus are suspected by some to be Christian additions. When the experts disagree, and they always disagree, you're right back where you started.

    Proof is, of course, not necessary to be a Christian.

    No archeological evidence ???

    so the teacher is again correct??

    No historic history proving he existed either??

    Aagin the teacher is correct???

    What up here???
    www.revivaldisco.com

    Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
    Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
    Evangelist c.moore

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    Over 500 post club Mustard Seed's Avatar
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    Re: Re: proof tasking......

    Originally posted by c.moore

    This is the problem he had no belief system.

    he only goes by the knowing system and facts and proofs.

    he mention about knowing is better than believing, and if you know something there is no need for believing.

    what do you think about that?

    Everyone has a belief system whether or not they conceed such. The very foundations of any real applications of science or reason demands assumptions be made concerning the systems which are being analyzed.

    Every scientist, philosopher etc. that makes any progress does so by making many assumptions about the system they are in. The primary difference I see is that those in the realm of recognized faith generaly are more apt to recognize the dogmas on which their beliefs rest. Dogmas are intrinsic to every system of analyzing the world even if it claims the objectivity some of those systems do.
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

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    Over 500 post club Mustard Seed's Avatar
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    Originally posted by c.moore

    No archeological evidence ???

    so the teacher is again correct??

    No historic history proving he existed either??

    Aagin the teacher is correct???

    What up here???
    There is evidence (refering here to emperical evidence, that which can be measured in a scientific materical way) that Christ lived. However such 'evidence' for the truthfulness of his claims on the playing field that the mythology teacher is suggesting doesn't exist. That's part of the problem is that the 'teacher' is basing their conclusions only on the empirical/quantifiable evidence. There is not (to my knowledge anyway) any such evidence that can be presented. You cannot have a test for the existence of God that will ever stand up to those standards because God's nature surpasses that which is quantifiable and conceivable on the level we are at in our present state.

    God can talk to us but there is no way that we can prove that such has occured to others (at least not presently) any and all points we try and present as evidence can be dismissed on the basis that the person we are trying to convince simply will not see any of it as evidence of what we propose.
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

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    Over 500 post club Mustard Seed's Avatar
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    There is no PROOF for global warming.

    There is no PROOF that DDT was ever thinning eggshells.

    c.moore most things do not have proof. Proof is relative to the individual receiving the information. If you have been convinced of something, regardless of whether or not it is true, you have had it, for the time, proven to you. We decide what is and is not proof for us. If you have some one who is convinced that they are, like in the popular movie the Matrix, traped inside some all encompasing computer simulation, no amount of proof is going to disuade them from their belief if they are not going to allow such.
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    c. moore,

    A Case for Christ is an excellent book. Good choice!

    Another EXCELLENT book that will not give physical evidence but will equip you with outstanding phylosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God is "Can Man Live Without God" by Ravi Zacharias. In fact pretty much everything he's ever written would be a great resource.

    Another source for terrific arguments for the existence of God is right here on TOL. The Battle Royale between Bob Enyart and Zakath is simply the best debate on the issue I have ever seen, and I haven't even read it all!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Aimiel,

    As a corollary to the question asked by Knight allow me to ask you a question that I asked you almost a year ago.

    If I told you that I got a visit in the spirit from Jesus Himself and He told me that by His sovereign right, He has decided to change the rules so that now everything about the gospel is the same except that from now on, no one will be saved except on every third Thursday of the month and only after 7:03pm local time.

    How would you know I was lying?

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    c.moore, the Mythological Jesus vs Historical Jesus debate is a huge one that's been going on for a long time. There's no easy answer.

    In short... no, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. It cannot (at this time) be proven that the man ever lived, much less performed the deeds credited to him.

    That said, there is also not enough evidence or even lack thereof to definitely state that the historical Jesus didn't exist. At this point in time, the jury is still out, and will remain out until such time as proof for either stance is discovered.

    The question isn't really "Can we prove that Jesus existed?"... it's "Does the fact that we can't prove his existence matter to modern Christians?" Does it alter your beliefs that you can't point to archaeological evidence, or are you simply looking for something to convert another individual? Bear in mind that proof of historical Jesus, were it to be found, doesn't necessarily prove that he was any of the things Christians believe him to be.

    As for Moses, there's even less evidence of him. The Egyptians have no record of anything even vaguely resembling the Exodus. *shrug* Make of that what you will...
    What Would Cthulhu Do?

    He who knows one religion knows none. - Max Muller

    That's the kind of liberal thinking that leads to being eaten! - Principal Snyder, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

    Abortions for some, miniature American flags for the rest! - Kang as Bob Dole, The Simpsons

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    Originally posted by Mustard Seed

    In other words, while reason and logic are not to trump faith to exercise, as it's called, 'blind faith' (I would dispute such as being able to be called faith) is not wise a wise course nor one, that I believe, can ever lead to salvation.
    I don't believe that I have, or was promoting such 'blind' faith.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    89520
    Originally posted by Knight

    Generally speaking... blind faith is for idiots!
    Agreed.
    God doesn't expect us to have blind faith.
    I believe that's a given.
    He expects us to have faith based the evidence He has given us.
    This is where you have to admit that either you believe or you don't. Those who don't accept that The Word of God is inspired by God, true or relevant don't 'see' the evidence that weighs so heavily upon our hearts.
    Does God's word (the Bible) play a vital role in our faith?
    Of course it does, it is the foundation. We take Him at His Word, and trust that He is True, though every man who ever lived (except, of course, Jesus) might have been a liar.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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