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Thread: can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

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    Smile proof tasking......

    Hi c.moore and all,


    Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

    Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whle compendium of 'proof').
    As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
    Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

    One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes

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    Smile proof tasking......

    Hi c.moore and all,


    Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

    Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whole compendium of 'proof').
    As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
    Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

    One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes all its 'stories'). What if the meaning and value we place on these is self-imposed? Lots to explore here.

    With faith there is only the substance of what is hoped for.....that being the evidence of a potential/actual reality that is invisible. Faith calls one to move beyond the sense(even intellectual) realm and seize/apprehend a spirit-reality/dimension of being. A person who says, 'Jesus is real to me' is speaking either by belief, experience or both...but its confirmation is always subjective based upon indidivual belief.

    One may want to consider what has conditioned your teachers 'beliefs' and makes them different from your 'beliefs'(research the conditionings). Asides from any obejective historical evidence.....we are stark naked only with our beliefs/values/experience.



    paul

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    89520

    Exclamation Clete Strikes Out

    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    "He doesn't 'prove' Himself to outsiders. If He wanted to show Himself, so that people would believe in Him by sight, instead of by faith, He would have recorded His Ministry, and it would be broadcast on TV. He chose to live when there is no historical evidence (other than the words of men, written on paper) to 'prove' anything."

    All of the above is 100% false, mindless and ignorant.
    No, it isn't; your reply is, though. Why do you think that God doesn't 'show' Himself to the un-believers, so that they will know that He is God?
    "You have to believe in Him, in order to receive anything from Him. The proof that we have that He is Lord is the inward witness of The Holy Ghost, Who tells us that His Word is true."

    Complete, idiotic, unfalsifiable nonsense!
    If it really were as 'idiotic' as you pretend, you might be able to prove that it is false. I can prove that it is, indeed, quite true:

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Will He give anything to someone who is not pleasing to Him? He rewards faith, not doubt.

    As to the second part of your quote of me...

    The fact that we (believers) believe that The Word of God is true, every bit of it, is proof enough for me that it takes The Holy Ghost, giving us the truth, down on the inside of us.

    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


    Are you getting the idea that The Holy Spirit is necessary, in order for anyone to hear and to believe The Truth? That is the case. We have a more sure word of prophecy than the eyewitnesses that heard The Voice from Heaven say, "This is My Beloved Son..." and there is no greater word than His.[/QUOTE]All in all your post was a complete waste of energy both to write and too read and now to copy and rebutt.[/QUOTE]Apparently you suffer from some type of disease which makes you tire too easily, and whine too much. Maybe you should be given a pacifier so that you can take a little 'nappy.'
    Why would you even say such things?
    Because it is truth.
    If nothing else it displays colossal ignorance of the very faith which you claim allegience to.
    I believe you've done a far greater job of doing this than anyone I've ever seen.
    If you weren't aware that such resources existed you should have said that or else just kept quiet and let someone who knows what they're talking about speak up.
    Go for it. I'm not saying you shouldn't give resources, but maybe asking for some content is a bit of a stretch for your minature grey matter.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Originally posted by keypurr

    Once I accepted that the Bible was from God, then the studies got serious to find out more about him. Knowledge builds faith and wisdom. It will not come overnight. But the search is well worth the time to find him.
    Bob,

    Nice post. I like the attitude. I also like what John Osteen was fond of saying:

    Great it is, to stand in youth, and dream a dream. But, greater still, to fight life through, and stand at the end and say, "The dream was true."
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Re: Clete Strikes Out

    Originally posted by Aimiel


    Are you getting the idea that The Holy Spirit is necessary, in order for anyone to hear and to believe The Truth? That is the case. We have a more sure word of prophecy than the eyewitnesses that heard The Voice from Heaven say, "This is My Beloved Son..." and there is no greater word than His
    There's nothing wrong with physical evidence in proving God. You make it sound as though we can't have this evidence and also be led by the Holy Spirit. I think God likes the evidence that points to Him.

    Romans 1:20
    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

    And the verse that was quoted earlier...
    Hebrews 1:11
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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    89520
    I don't think that there is one piece of conclusive emperical evidence which proves the existence of God. I believe He would have left at least one, if He wanted men to come to Him on that 'bunny-trail.' He chose faith. Those who take Him at His Word get all of Him. Those who don't, just don't get Him at all.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    1011259
    Originally posted by Aimiel
    He chose faith.
    But not blind faith.
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    Originally posted by Knight

    But not blind faith.
    What do you mean?
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Moore,

    There is no archeological evidence that I'm aware of "proving" Christ's existence. The jury's still out when it comes to the Jesus Box and Turin Shroud. Josephus's references to Jesus are suspected by some to be Christian additions. When the experts disagree, and they always disagree, you're right back where you started.

    Proof is, of course, not necessary to be a Christian.
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    Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
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    granite1010, I know you have your disagreements with Enyart, but I highly recommend you watch his Mt. Moriah video. If you don't like it, you can get a refund.

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    c.moore,

    Perhaps this might help a little.

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    Over 500 post club Mustard Seed's Avatar
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    185

    Help, whether or not you will have it.

    The following was taken from a book that was written at the same time as the Bible on an entirely different continent. "Por la boca de doc o tres testigos se establecera todo asunto". You see c.moore the reason the mythology teacher can pull such stuff out of history is because even Adam and Eve were taught about Christ and his comming. The entire history of man has been filled to the brim with sects that at some point in their history have broken from the true religion or have borrowed much of their philosophies from it. Adam followed God and hence had to follow Christ. I know the majority of you have regected the following before and I in all honesty don't expect you to receive it with any more warmth. But following your request, c.moore, I am providing the following excerpt--

    Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment–seat of Christ.


    TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.

    (Book of Mormon | Preface Title Page:2)
    Just as I've pointed out in my conversations with ThePhy the acceptance of a certain 'reason' and 'logic' promoted by ThePhy and others as ruling against Mormonism brings all religions under condemnation. One of the previous posters was correct in the aprisal that the standards the mythology teacher set are to broad. I would hope some honest person would admit this not only on what has been said by the mythology teacher but by the likes of ThePhy.
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

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    185
    Originally posted by Aimiel

    What do you mean?
    I mean not to steal anyones thunder but I think this may portray, more or less, what Knight appears to be trying to say to Aimiel with regard to the role of reason and argument in conjunction with faith.

    Taken from

    http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/WhyApologetics.pdf


    The English author,Austin Farrer put it this way:

    "Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish. an answer to every man that asketh you a reason for
    the hope that is in you.?
    In other words, while reason and logic are not to trump faith to exercise, as it's called, 'blind faith' (I would dispute such as being able to be called faith) is not wise a wise course nor one, that I believe, can ever lead to salvation.
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

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    You might try these, c.moore.

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    1011259
    Originally posted by Aimiel

    What do you mean?
    Generally speaking... blind faith is for idiots!

    God doesn't expect us to have blind faith.

    He expects us to have faith based the evidence He has given us.

    Aimiel.....
    Does God's word (the Bible) play a vital role in our faith?
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