They're either gonna steal your money, or steal your control. With vouchers, they'll end up doing both.
toldailytopic: School vouchers, are you for, or against them?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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They're either gonna steal your money, or steal your control. With vouchers, they'll end up doing both.
PureX
Well-known member
So would everyone. But that's not how taxes work. If we could trust individuals to pay for things that the whole society needs, we wouldn't have to pay any taxes at all, our collective needs would be covered automatically. But individuals don't want to pay for things that their society as a whole, needs. That's why we have to have taxation in the first place ... to pay for things we that don't want to pay for, but need as a collective society.
The question, here, never was 'what do YOU want to pay for?'. The question is how do we deal with the problems we're having in some of our public schools? And the solution is't 'what do YOU want to pay for?'. The solution is what will work best for everyone concerned? What will work best, and in the long run cost less, too, would be to simply fix the problems. That means we need to get political cronies out of the system, so that the money we do spend goes to the schools, and not the school 'administrators'. And it's going to mean addressing the problem of negligent parents. Vouchers don't do anything to actually solve either of these problems. The 'administrators' would simply be exchanged for corporate profiteers, and the negligent parents and their troubled children will still have to be addressed.
So let's just fix the problems. Then we won't need any vouchers.
But of course, so true...God forbid parents would choose to educate their kids outside of the left leaning public schools.
:thumb:
When people have looked at this, they find that children most often have the political and social views of their parents. So if the schools are trying to change that, they are failing.
Barbarian observes:
Precisely. If your municipal system works well, why pay a private hauler?
In general, they do a good job, better than the schools in most nations. And no nation in modern times has ever managed to educate it's population without public schools.
PureX
Well-known member
Yeah! Send kids to school and before you know it, they start getting IDEAS! They start disagreeing with us! We certainly don't want any more of those smart people around here! They keep making us look stupid! DOWN WITH EDUCATION!
HisServant
New member
Unfortunately, most of those great ideas are not tempered with reality and wisdom.
I already live in a middle-class neighborhood.
I'm not sure that paying less in taxes by opting our of the public school system would cause my kids/grandkids to pay a heavy price.
PureX
Well-known member
Yeah, that's how it is when people are young. And guess what, they AREN'T GOING TO LISTEN to you, or to me, or anyone else, either. Just like you didn't listen to your parents, and they didn't listen to theirs. Instead, they will make up their own minds, and have to make their own mistakes to find out if they were wrong or not. (But this is one of those "liberal" observations that conservatives hate so much.)
And guess what else, YOU COULD BE WRONG! (That's another one.)
The thing about education is that all it can do is present them with options. What it can't do, doesn't do, and shouldn't do, is project your mind into theirs.
No one wants to be you. No one wants more you's running around. No one wants to relive your childhood, or to live even the ideal childhood that you invent for them.
Paying less in taxes is a good thing.
Opting out of our government school system is a good thing.
I just don’t believe that our current government will let you do both without strings attached. Those strings will twist into the rope that ends up strangling your and my values.
America’s churches have opted out of a secular humanist culture and pay less taxes. Many (probably most) are scared to teach what they ought for fear of losing their tax-exempt status. I believe that if churches had not allowed the governmental stipulations of tax-free status, we wouldn’t be dealing with over a million abortions each year, homo “rights,” socialistic policies, etc.
So maybe that is the “answer.” Accept vouchers if, and only if there are no governmental regulations/restrictions attached...ever. Not holding my breath on that one.
It's always tough to determine what the government may or may not do. As we both know the government is trying to "get in my business" already and vouchers and school tax credits don't event exist.
I say, you can only fight the battle that is in front of you, not the battle that is a theoretical possibility.
So here are our choices.... continue to pay twice for our kids education knowing that the government tax money will be paid in hopes that the government leaves me alone. (kinda like paying off the mob). :chuckle:
Or fight to opt out of paying twice (either by voucher or tax credit) and then fight again if and when the government tries to restrict the way I educate my kids.
Neither option is optimal, but I pay too much in taxes as it is and I'm sick of paying twice especially for a sick and twisted government school system that I don't have any part in.
I would rather keep my money and not fund the wicked government school system. And then tell the government "over my dead body" when they come knocking at my door and tell me how to educate my kids.
Barbarian suggests:
Move to a middle-class neighborhood and only pay once.
Then the odds are very good that your children have very good public schools.
If you alone didn't, and found adequate private schools, no, it wouldn't. If a significant number did, in a generation or two, the decline would be apparent. And your grandchildren would pay a heavy price.
Move to a middle-class neighborhood and only pay once.
Then the odds are very good that your children have very good public schools.
If you alone didn't, and found adequate private schools, no, it wouldn't. If a significant number did, in a generation or two, the decline would be apparent. And your grandchildren would pay a heavy price.
Our local school is considered one of the very best and most conservative in the state.
Yet, when my boys were in 1st and 2nd grade the school board asked that we allow homosexual, bisexual, and transgendered speakers to come in and have a talk with the kids.
We have homeschooled ever since. I will never, ever, ever, send any of my kids to a another perverted government school. We have six kids and the 3 oldest are now adults and we still homeschool our 3 younger girls. In a way I am thankful that our school did that way back then because it made me quickly realize how incredibly horrible the government school system is.
Doesn't sound very conservative to me. Just saying. My daughter went to a high school in a rather liberal community, and that never happened.
Personally, I don't see that as a problem. My kids knew about such things pretty early; and we talked about it, and why God wants certain things in their lives. But we also explained that such only God gets to decide who will be punished for such things. Didn't hurt them.
I just wanted the school to teach them academic subjects. And that worked great. I taught them about God and values. And because I took that seriously, they took my values.
I don't mind you homeschooling, if you find the culture around you to be scarey or wrong. It's your right. But at the same time, you can hardly expect others to submit to your preferences. Your choices are to live within the society you are in, or find one better to your liking.
Barbarian suggests: It's OK to raise a pimpfe for the Deutsches Jungvolk?
Nazi youth were primarily indoctrinated in anti-Semetism and loyalty to the Third Riech. Sure, Germany produced incredible minds in rocketry, medicine, organizational efficiency, etc....but to what end?
It's always tough to determine what the government may or may not do. As we both know the government is trying to "get in my business" already and vouchers and school tax credits don't event exist.
I say, you can only fight the battle that is in front of you, not the battle that is a theoretical possibility.
So here are our choices.... continue to pay twice for our kids education knowing that the government tax money will be paid in hopes that the government leaves me alone. (kinda like paying off the mob). :chuckle:
Or fight to opt out of paying twice (either by voucher or tax credit) and then fight again if and when the government tries to restrict the way I educate my kids.
Neither option is optimal, but I pay too much in taxes as it is and I'm sick of paying twice especially for a sick and twisted government school system that I don't have any part in.
I would rather keep my money and not fund the wicked government school system. And then tell the government "over my dead body" when they come knocking at my door and tell me how to educate my kids.
I’m just thinking that a lot of your backup will have been paid off by the time the “over my dead body” part happens.
I’ll be there for ya, though. :Clete:
All the more reason you should support school choice (via vouchers or tax credits). When all of us wacky religious conservatives opt out you will have much less resistance to run the godless education system how you see fit. Our family will never send our kids to a public, private, or even a Christian school. We believe it is our responsibility and honor to educate our kids and we are very proud of the results. Therefore, why continue to coerce me to pay for something I don't use and am fundamentally opposed to? Who's forcing what on who??
Bringing competition to the school system would help everyone! Even liberals like you. You will be free to send your kids to a school free from God. No pressure to teach creation, no pressure to allow prayer, etc.
As for me... I don't think you can properly educate a child minus the Creator.
Are you implying that the only place a child can learn and develop good reasoning skills is within a school system?
Idiots like Thomas Edison and Abraham Lincoln were home schooled.
HisServant
New member
I disagree.. our educational system all the way through college teaches our children so they are conditioned to reason things in a specific way so that the majority of the time decisions will come out the way the educators want.
Our educational system needs to teach children to be more self reliant and adaptable and adventurous.. but also to be responsible and sensible. I would like to see kids encouraged to experience more career paths and not be locked into a major their freshman year and then live the rest of their lives doing something they hate for a living.
I've been a Land Surveyor (licensed), Civil Engineer (licensed), Oil Field Roughneck, college student, seminary student, computer software developer, Geographic Systems specialist, woodworker (cabinet maker), welder, landscaper, electrician (licensed), accountant and couple other jobs in my lifetime. It took me quite a while to finally figure out what is right for me.
The experience and education I received working in most of those professions dwarfed what I learned in high school and college. Now I don't have to hire someone to do anything around my house... or fix my car..
I'm currently thinking of going to law school after I retire early, just for the experience.
No, and outside of a few really, really conservative communities in the deep south, such as Pike County, Alabama, that doesn't happen.
As I said, that rarely happens in American, and it's mostly rightwing extremism.
Not really. That came under less tyrannical governments before the Nazis. There was a huge brain drain from Germany when the Nazis took over. It's one of the reasons we got the Atomic Bomb first.
It goes beyond reason to consider America public schools (which are, after all, run by the consent of local citizens) to be even faintly like the Nazis. Except for the isolated case I mentioned, where else has something like that happened?
Your system is godless? Sounds awful. But that's unconstitutional. The ACLU has forced schools to let students carry Bibles and pray publicly. How does your school get away with that?
Congratulations. You and your wife are exceptional people. If everyone was exceptional, we wouldn't need police or public schools.
So people who don't like war, shouldn't be allowed to deduct the percentage we spend on the military? You seriously think so?
I wouldn't send my kids to a school like that. Fortunately, I don't have to.
That's pretty much over. Religious freedom triumphed over creationism.
My daughter belonged to Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and they prayed in school on a regular basis. What do you find objectionable about that?
Turns out you can't. But you can teach him language, math, and science, without teaching about God. I'll handle the religious instruction for my kids.