toldailytopic: Do good works play a part in your salvation?

Good works don't save us, nor do they "keep" us saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Good works are the RESULT/FRUIT of our salvation. Our salvation is "proved" or "tested" by our works:

James 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 (KJV) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 (KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 (KJV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 (KJV) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 (KJV) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 (KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 (KJV) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Paul and James do not contradict each other.

Town Heretic said:

While I don't normally comb through the past posts of anyone to supply a context for an answer to my responses to a post on a point, reading that didn't actually change anything in my present illustration or response.

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Well no one else seemed to glean from my posts that I believe grace is earned, so I don't believe I've been unclear. Who knows why you differ from them in interpretation and tone so much, even from your first post? :idunno:

Enjoy your weekend :e4e:

zippy2006 said:

Well no one else seemed to glean from my posts that I believe grace is earned, so I don't believe I've been unclear. Who knows why you differ from them in interpretation and tone so much. :idunno:

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Is your salvation assured or must you strive toward it?

Enjoy your weekend :e4e:

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You too. :cheers:

Town Heretic said:

Is your salvation assured or must you strive toward it?

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Salvation is something I work out with fear and trembling.

Again you haven't addressed the hard questions I've brought up. There is Calvinism and there is Pelagianism, and most Christians fall somewhere inbetween. Like I pointed out earlier, I can cast "faith" in the same light you cast "works." I could reduce your belief to "striving toward salvation via a meritorious act of faith" (which in your case would be a sort of eternal act of faith).

I see my salvation as a "walk," a "working out," a relationship with God. Love is not demonstrated by merely a word, or a creed, or a claim. Love is demonstrated by action, by what we do. A work in Christ is not fundamentally different from a confession of faith in Christ, and is at least as important according to Christ's own words. Salvation isn't a trinket at the store that you buy, or earn, or are guaranteed. Salvation is a marriage covenant in which we play an essential and active role. Christ did not come to the earth to announce His devotion and love for us with a word and then take off. Love Itself was inseparable from act, from the cross. We who partake in that love are no greater than our Master.

:e4e:

zippy2006 said:

Salvation is something I work out with fear and trembling.

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So then you must believe your works are the difference between heaven and hell. And we differ on that point.

Again you haven't addressed the hard questions I've brought up.

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Since this is the first time you've leveled the allegation again seems a bit of an uncharitable and less than accurate stretch. I've certainly attempted to answer you on every point from where I took up an answer to your question to Protestants. :idunno:

There is Calvinism and there is Pelagianism, and most Christians fall somewhere inbetween.

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My layman's understanding of the terms would suggest you mean something like from predestination to the ability to become holy through our own actions. If so that seems about right as bookends go.

Like I pointed out earlier, I can cast "faith" in the same light you cast "works."

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So you say...I think the invitation and acceptance of grace is a rather singular animal. But the real meat isn't in our wrestling over whether the taking of a thing that benefits us and requires no sacrifice from us is a virtuous act of some merit, but whether grace is conditioned in such a way that our actions govern it and not vice versa.

I could reduce your belief to "striving toward salvation via a meritorious act of faith" (which in your case would be a sort of eternal act of faith).

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You could assert it as such and I'd resist you. Again, I don't know that it gets us anywhere worth going. I'm not trying to convert you, dogmatically, just answering the question and providing a differing context.

I see my salvation as a "walk," a "working out," a relationship with God.

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Where I share the walk and relationship and absolutely affirm that to have that is to find yourself altered and your aims elevated. I simply differ on whether that walk is the reflection of gratitude in abundance or another way of seeing and satisfying the requirements of the Law ourselves.

Love is not demonstrated by merely a word, or a creed, or a claim.

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Why not? The thief who dwells with Christ had nothing more or less than feeling and words to offer God. It appeared sufficient.

Love is demonstrated by action, by what we do.

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I'd agree you can't see an idea, only the expression of it. But didn't you only just argue that words/thoughts were like unto actions as regarded merit?

Salvation isn't a trinket at the store that you buy, or earn, or are guaranteed.

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A trinket or a pearl of great price may be bought or earned, but if grace is a gift of God and I am purchased in my acceptance it seems a bit incongruous to assert thereafter that I remain my own and the arbiter of my fate.

Salvation is a marriage covenant in which we play an essential and active role.

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I'd say our walk with Christ is very much like a marriage. And as with a good marriage the things I do to express my love are done out of that love and not out of obligation.

Christ did not come to the earth to announce His devotion and love for us with a word and then take off.

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I completely agree. He did a great work. And it's not a work that needs repeating.

Love Itself was inseparable from act, from the cross. We who partake in that love are no greater than our Master.

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We come perilously close to that belief if we assume we can undo what He accomplished.

:e4e:

Psalmist said:

toldailytopic: Do good works play a part in your salvation?​

I'm not sure how to answer this...

What good works played nothing before I was saved, nothing.

What good works are playing after I was saved, goods works should daily follow the believer, they should show forth and reflect the loveliness and truth of Jesus in my life, it should always that my desire and a desire fulfilled should be the Son of God who gave Himself for me, and I live this life in Christ because He lives in me.

So for good works it is for me, am I reflecting Jesus and His glorious salvation, or am I reflecting, "Oh, look at me."

I'm not sure I have topiced this right, but it is from the heart, as it is as Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing," I like that because then it is less of me and more of Jesus, that many would desire and come to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior too.​

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Exactly! MT 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Totton Linnet said:

...Jesus answered them "this is the work of God that ye believe on Him who God hath sent"

This was after He had fed 5,000 men [+ the women and children] with the loaves and fishes.

....Mother Theresa believed, she was just one woman. What if the whole church would believe like that?

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What an inspired post which raises excitement ... oh if one little Mother Theresa believed and made such a big difference, then how much bigger a difference would be made if entire congregations believed!

Even a tiny mustard seed of faith can produce outstanding results!

MT 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
LK 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

we need help to have sufficient faith/belief. May God please grant this
LK 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
MK 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Well, that's what Jesus said. I believe Him.

Refractive said:

Well, that's what Jesus said. I believe Him.

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Jesus said what?

Knight said:

toldailytopic: Do good works play a part in your salvation

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Good works are a sine qua non ("without which not"). Good works won't get you to heaven. If you don't do good works, or worse, if you do bad works, that might get you to Hell.

Totton Linnet said:

If Jesus dwells in us, He will do His works through us.

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Nope. Paul says the opposite. He says his flesh is dead because of sin, and does nothing right. His spirit is alive.

If we have the Holy Ghost we will bear His fruit, lest as a branch of the vine we be removed.

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What you confess is your fruit. It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, it is what comes out of him. And the olive branch is Israel, not the body of Christ.

zippy2006 said:

Sort of, yes. The "salvation is by faith alone, apart from works" seems to imply that one cannot earn salvation via works and yet somehow merits it via faith. Faith and works are, in a very relevant way, inseparable. I mean them in the sort of common way the words are used: as belief/intellectual assent/trust and bodily action/interaction with external things. It leads to a goofy gnosticism as well as an unBiblical focus on the individual and the inner life while ignoring external acts toward others and the communal life.

:e4e:

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I believe we're in full agreement here. :thumb:

Shocking, I know.

zippy2006 said:

Salvation is something I work out with fear and trembling.

Again you haven't addressed the hard questions I've brought up. There is Calvinism and there is Pelagianism, and most Christians fall somewhere inbetween. Like I pointed out earlier, I can cast "faith" in the same light you cast "works." I could reduce your belief to "striving toward salvation via a meritorious act of faith" (which in your case would be a sort of eternal act of faith).

I see my salvation as a "walk," a "working out," a relationship with God. Love is not demonstrated by merely a word, or a creed, or a claim. Love is demonstrated by action, by what we do. A work in Christ is not fundamentally different from a confession of faith in Christ, and is at least as important according to Christ's own words. Salvation isn't a trinket at the store that you buy, or earn, or are guaranteed. Salvation is a marriage covenant in which we play an essential and active role. Christ did not come to the earth to announce His devotion and love for us with a word and then take off. Love Itself was inseparable from act, from the cross. We who partake in that love are no greater than our Master.

:e4e:

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:up:

zippy is tearing this thread up. :box:

Lighthouse said:

Do you understand why Romans 1 should be included?

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Why do you think including Romans 1 has an effect on my using Romans 2:1-8 in this thread?

kmoney said:

I believe we're in full agreement here.

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kmoney said:

:up:

zippy is tearing this thread up. :box:

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Remarkable coincidence that (aka: beans).

Town Heretic said:

Remarkable coincidence that (aka: beans).

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Oh, please. Of course if I'm in agreement with someone in a thread I'm going to say they are doing well in it. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

kmoney said:

Oh, please. Of course if I'm in agreement with someone in a thread I'm going to say they are doing well in it. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

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I just think it was swell of you to chime in twice like that in a row just to attaboy him... and I guess, inferentially, yourself. :thumb:

Did you get a hair ribbon with those pom-poms, Nancy?

Town Heretic said:

I just think it was swell of you to chime in twice like that in a row just to attaboy him...

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Just trying to make you feel outnumbered. :noid:

and I guess, inferentially, yourself. :thumb:

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Someone has to.

Did you get a hair ribbon with those pom-poms, Nancy?

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Yes, a pink.....I mean.....:IA:

Town Heretic said:

Salvation is something I work out with fear and trembling.

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So then you must believe your works are the difference between heaven and hell. And we differ on that point.

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Why don't you give your definition of "works" so one can actually make out what you are saying. What you just said seems like yet another gross misrepresentation, especially since I merely echoed St. Paul's words, but maybe I am wrong. What exactly does it mean? Why would the words of St. Paul elicit your differing, is it merely because they come from my mouth?

My layman's understanding of the terms would suggest you mean something like from predestination to the ability to become holy through our own actions. If so that seems about right as bookends go.

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:thumb:

So you say...I think the invitation and acceptance of grace is a rather singular animal.

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Why? When Jesus spoke to the fisherman and said "Come and follow me," was not their following the very acceptance of that grace? What about when Jesus asked the women to draw Him water? How about when the beggar on the street asks for food? I think a broadening of horizons would show that each of these is an invitation to grace from God. Why are we to be joyful when we are able to suffer with and for Christ? In no way is God singular or simple in this way. None of the above are excluded by being "works" instead of "faith."

But the real meat isn't in our wrestling over whether the taking of a thing that benefits us and requires no sacrifice from us is a virtuous act of some merit

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Well that actually is half the meat, believe it or not. See your view includes "merit" (used in the same way you would use the word to describe my own view) on the part of man, which is ironically what you criticize about my own view. AMR's view, on the other hand, includes no merit on the part of man with respect to salvation. The point is: you don't get to brush me black and you white with the same brush. You cannot say that your view requires response rather than merit without also accepting that my view is the same (else demonstrate the difference). A spoken word and a physical act are no different in God's eyes. You don't get to wave a wand and say that one is response and one is an attempt to earn. I can respond to grace with works just as well as you can with words, even better in James' eyes.

, but whether grace is conditioned in such a way that our actions govern it and not vice versa.

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But works do not necessitate Pelagianism any more than "faith" does. :sigh:

Why not? The thief who dwells with Christ had nothing more or less than feeling and words to offer God. It appeared sufficient.

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Why didn't Jesus just tell us He loved us? But I have never said that works are a requirement for salvation. But saying that someone can be saved without works is like saying that someone can be saved without literal faith. It's possible in odd scenarios, but unlkely. A good tree will bear fruit.

I'd agree you can't see an idea, only the expression of it. But didn't you only just argue that words/thoughts were like unto actions as regarded merit?

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Yes, fair enough, I exaggerated there. Throughout the thread I've noted my definitions: faith being essentially mental and works being essentially physical. That sets up a false dichotomy. I think any human action can be a response to grace and similarly any human action can be an attempt to earn grace.

I completely agree. He did a great work. And it's not a work that needs repeating.

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He lit a fire on the earth, He sent out his Apostles to convert and baptize, He points us toward the poor and the suffering, He specifically tells us to repeat His work and take up our crosses. Christ's sacrifice sorely needs repeating.

We come perilously close to that belief if we assume we can undo what He accomplished.

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So say the protestors. They seem to miss the fact that the commission comes from the Lord, not from us. That our works are the fruits of His labor. I'm not sure how Christ reacts when people turn from the path He paved and turn their eyes away from the poor back toward themselves and "their salvation." It is interesting that Luther's Scrupulosity pointed out dirt and introduced tar. We went from "give alms to get into Heaven" to "don't worry about works or alms or your neighbor, just worry about yourself and your faith. It's just you and God."

God's call is always active, always mission. Every single time God calls someone in the Bible it is for mission, to do something. Faith without works is love of God without love of neighbor (if that). If salvation is marriage to God and God tells us over and over and over and over and over again to feed His sheep, to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry, to visit those in prison, and to spread His word throughout the earth, then I think it's safe to say that works are a big part of salvation. It's no wonder He will reject those who stay away from such things.

Furthermore, what if we consider faith not in the bastardized sense that distinguishes between physical works and mental dispositions, but in the Pauline sense? First in Gal 1:8 we see that if this idea of "faith alone" is contrary to the teaching of Christ's Church, it should be quickly dismissed. Certainly faith is indispensable, but we see only through a glass darkly, and it must be remembered that faith is only a temporary Christian virtue. Once the unseen is made known, faith will not be necessary. In Heaven there is no faith. Finally 1 Cor 13 makes it undeniably clear that "faith alone" is not enough, especially 1 Cor 13:13 "So faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

:e4e:

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:e4e: