toldailytopic: Do good works play a part in your salvation?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
If Jesus dwells in us, He will do His works through us. If we have the Holy Ghost we will bear His fruit, lest as a branch of the vine we be removed.
Just because somebody or some group of people decide that was only for Jews it will not stop it from coming to pass.
We may be saved but it is a poor salvation and a dangerous one without accompanying works or fruit.
Scriptural confirmation:
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
zippy2006
New member
Faith, not belief.
Or you're giving it yet another superficial reading.
The thief on the cross did not have actless faith. :idunno:
Gee, thanks.
Obviously I can't force you to read the words I write rather than the ones I don't. You have that odd inclination to separate intent from action.
:e4e:
zippy2006
New member
This is a nice post AMR. Admittedly I find the Calvinistic position much more sound on this topic than a common modern Protestant position, and wasn't necessarily including Calvinism in my criticism. Of course I disagree on a few particulars, but I agree with the general idea here. :e4e:
Yes but not by the Father or the Holy Ghost
zippy2006
New member
Sort of, yes. The "salvation is by faith alone, apart from works" seems to imply that one cannot earn salvation via works and yet somehow merits it via faith. Faith and works are, in a very relevant way, inseparable. I mean them in the sort of common way the words are used: as belief/intellectual assent/trust and bodily action/interaction with external things. It leads to a goofy gnosticism as well as an unBiblical focus on the individual and the inner life while ignoring external acts toward others and the communal life.
:e4e:
Notice that that verse is in reference to 'the dead' and is a 'judgement[condemnation] according to works'.
Apostle Paul already informed us that we are saved 'apart from works', but by faith in Jesus Christ:
Rom 3:20 For by works of law no human being will be justified[dikaioo-be righteous] in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law........
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from[choris-by itself] works of law.
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy
Jesus said:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation[judgement]; but is passed from death unto life.
Paul said:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation[judgement] to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified[dikaiosune-declared righteous], and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Too good to believe that GOD would justifiy[declare righteous] the ungodly by faith alone?
Yeah, well....that's the clincher. One must simply believe GOD.
That's why it's called 'Good News'[the Gospel].
Anyone judged according to their own works 'for righteousness' will fall short of the Glory of GOD and must necessarily go to the lake of fire. One does not want to be at 'the judgement of the dead'.
zippy2006
New member
No, works of the law:
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from[choris-by itself] works of law.
Yes.
James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
We work through Christ. We are His Body.
This.
Hi, Zip!
'of law'....there is no definite article in the Greek.
Paul continues his thought in Chapter 4...no chapter divisions originally.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
The Mosaic Law(of works) was given 430 years after Abraham so Paul must be talking about 'any' works of obligation(law) or any outward demonstration whereby one could be justified(declared righteous) before GOD.
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Salvation is a gift. There is no way that one can do works of law in order to make GOD indebted to them for anything. We owe Him...He does not owe us.
Christ didn't fulfill the Mosaic Law and bring it to an end in order to just reinslave us to a new different Law of works to obtain salvation.
Our salvation is complete in Him by His 'finished' work upon the cross..plus nothing. To Him be 'all' the glory and ....the credit.
Gal 3:21 Is the law(Mosaic) then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by (no article) law.
If GOD could give us a law to obey in our own strength which would give us life, then Christ would not have had to have died on the cross.
Christ is my righteousness and my sufficiency.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from[choris-by itself] works of law.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
"Show me/show you". The only thing that man is capable of seeing is our outward works. Which works man sees us doing, will be evidence of who we are, whether of GOD or not.
On the otherhand...GOD looks at the heart, which only He can see:
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.[referring to the event at the house of Cornelius]
Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart[ho kardiognostes Theos-the heart-knowing GOD], bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
The narration of the event in Chapter 10 demonstrates that Peter preached the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and upon 'hearing' and 'believing', GOD gave the first Gentiles His Holy Spirit/saved them/made them His own.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under [no article] law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
If one claims faith yet there are no good works manifest in their life, especially if consistent evil works are present, then it certainly would be evidence that there is no 'spirit life' there.
Yes!
'of law'....there is no definite article in the Greek.
Paul continues his thought in Chapter 4...no chapter divisions originally.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
The Mosaic Law(of works) was given 430 years after Abraham so Paul must be talking about 'any' works of obligation(law) or any outward demonstration whereby one could be justified(declared righteous) before GOD.
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Salvation is a gift. There is no way that one can do works of law in order to make GOD indebted to them for anything. We owe Him...He does not owe us.
Christ didn't fulfill the Mosaic Law and bring it to an end in order to just reinslave us to a new different Law of works to obtain salvation.
Our salvation is complete in Him by His 'finished' work upon the cross..plus nothing. To Him be 'all' the glory and ....the credit.
Gal 3:21 Is the law(Mosaic) then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by (no article) law.
If GOD could give us a law to obey in our own strength which would give us life, then Christ would not have had to have died on the cross.
Christ is my righteousness and my sufficiency.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from[choris-by itself] works of law.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
"Show me/show you". The only thing that man is capable of seeing is our outward works. Which works man sees us doing, will be evidence of who we are, whether of GOD or not.
On the otherhand...GOD looks at the heart, which only He can see:
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.[referring to the event at the house of Cornelius]
Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart[ho kardiognostes Theos-the heart-knowing GOD], bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
The narration of the event in Chapter 10 demonstrates that Peter preached the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and upon 'hearing' and 'believing', GOD gave the first Gentiles His Holy Spirit/saved them/made them His own.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under [no article] law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
If one claims faith yet there are no good works manifest in their life, especially if consistent evil works are present, then it certainly would be evidence that there is no 'spirit life' there.
Yes!
AMR's post, unfortunately does not accept all of the scripture on the topic. The ones it avoids, would change the conclusion of it. Nothing against AMR, he posted this notedly as someone elses work.
That would assume you confessed after every sin, or for every sin.
Without the confession what do you have?
Scripture says to confess. Period. :chuckle:
Abraham wasn't justified by works, that isn't what James was discussing.
Abraham, according to James, had his FAITH justified by His works. Not his salvation justified by works. The word justified has a meaning, it doesn't just mean justify to salvation every time you see it.
I realize you probably knew that, personally.
If you have faith, then you will inseperably have the works.
The works don't save you. But you can't avoid having them IF you are saved.
You can't be saved without Faith, because grace comes through faith.
Faith produces works.
If you don't have works, what you call faith, may not be. IF IT IS NOT, then you won't have grace. Still, works don't save you, but they are most likely a barometer of your salvation and maturation.
Stecko, why not give us your apologetic on the last parable in MATT 25. Sheep and goats. Please explain why the sheep went to glory/heaven/whatever yours says, and the Goats didn't. The examples shows those that went on, did the works. How do you edit that?
so can you have either one without the other?
Let's take a look at the rest of the coin. There is three sides to a coin, why only show the pretty side?
NASB Matt 25 31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [fn5] take care of You?' 45 Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
WHY did the ones doing the work in JESUS parable, be the ones taken to heaven. :|
And I notice you don't say the Works saves you. I doubt anyone would notice if I didn't point it out.