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Thread: ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

  1. #391
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    Originally posted by Knight

    What makes you think he gave the woman on the radio cancer?
    does Z Man believe that she got if from God?

    i think that's a better question.
    There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.

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    Knight--In post #301, you asked Z man if there was anything bad or evil in history that was NOT directly orchestrated by God, and asked for examples.

    It sounds more like you to doubt that there ARE examples of God orchestrating anything involving bad or evil in history. what did you mean? What kind of example would you like me to present to you?

    There ARE, you know, examples wherein God purposely orchestrates the performance of evil by evil spirits and the evil nature in men for which He later brings judgment upon them. That aligns with the Bible's declaration that "God has made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil." How many examples would you like to see? Just let me know.

    God has often used the evil nature in certain creatures as the means whereby He brings them into judgement.

    There are also many instances of Him afflicting people. How many those instances would you like to see?
    Last edited by Rolf Ernst; June 2nd, 2004 at 07:19 PM.
    "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen" Romans 11:36

  3. #393
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    Originally posted by Knight
    Originally posted by Z Man

    So, do you take back your statement that diseases are not given? Did you mean to imply that ALL diseases are not given? You never stated that there were conditions...

    If you can at least agree with me and Scripture that God does indeed give people diseases, then we can move on to when and why God does those things.
    Z Man how many times have I stated (on this very thread) that God punishes the wicked and unrepentant??? 10? 20? 30 times?

    What is your deal?

    Is your head thick?
    HAHA! Knight, I never asked if God punishes the wicked; I asked does God give people diseases. What is your answer?

    If you do recall, a few posts back you said that diseases were not "given"; that they come from no where. Do you now believe that God does give people diseases, but only to the wicked as punishment? Please clarify. Did you mean that God does not give diseases period, or only to the wicked, because at first you sounded more like God doesn't give anyone diseases, period. Now that I've shown you Scripture that says otherwise, you seem to want to change the subject, or make it look like you only meant that God gives diseases to the wicked only...

    Please clarify so that we can all understand your positition. As of now, you have yet to recant your previous statement that diseases aren't given. Will you admit that you were wrong, or at least tell us that what you meant was that God only gives diseases to the wicked?

    We're still waiting...
    All diseases? All sicknesses??? For all of history????

    Has God given EVERY disease... EVERY sickness throughtout all of history???
    Why not? If it wasn't God, who gave it to the person? And what makes you think that God only gives diseases to the wicked? If that's the case, why do "innocent" people get them too?

    You know, I don't even like that question, because it seems to imply that there are "good" people, and there are "bad". No one is innocent. If God only gives "wicked" people diseases, than I think we all should be ill...

    But before we can get into this discussion, you need to make it clear whether you believe God even gives people diseases to begin with. Your stand was that diseases aren't given; they come from no where. But now that I've shown you Scripture that says God does give people diseases, will you clarify your position for us all? Admit you made a mistake?
    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

  4. #394
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    Originally posted by Poly

    I don't know how you put up with his unfair debating. More power to ya! When somebody gets as twisted as Zman has become in his tactics I end up having to just ignore them. It's just too "Freaky" for me.
    Unfair? Where have I been unfair? And besides, how can a person be 'unfair' in debating?

    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

  5. #395
    Over 1000 post club Z Man's Avatar
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    Poly,

    The last thing you said was:
    Originally posted by Poly

    I reject the notion that God would take the boy's life to bring about His glory. Why? Because the God I know is powerful enough to bring His glory about without resorting to the taking of an innocent life which He happens to speak against.
    You said you reject the notion that God would take a human's life to bring about His glory, because you believe that God is more powerful than that - that He is able to bring about His glory another way than to shed innocent blood.

    My reply...

    So is He not as powerful as you believe since He had His only Son killed? Couldn't there have been another way than to spill innocent blood?

    If you reject that God would take a human life to display His glory, why do you not reject that He would take His own life to display His glory? Is human life more valuable than Christ's?

    Where's your reply? You didn't "ignore" me because you believe this to be unfair; you ignore me because you know I'm right. God can be glorified through the death of a boy's life if He so chooses to do so. He is most glorified through the spilt, innocent blood of His own death; why can't He bring about His glory from the death of a human? Don't ignore me; I'm not being unfair. I'm being honest...
    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

  6. #396
    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Why should He? And where did He say He would leave them the way He said He would?
    Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

    But going beyond that, letting us experience the consequences of our actions is inferred in every warning that God gives. Going beyond that, God was so insistent on freedom that He let the world go to hell in a handbasket to the point of having to destroy it.

    Even on another level, changing the rules after the game has started is wrong. Even I know that. So if God can change the rules for some people to "help" them get saved, He is obligated to fix physics for everyone.

    If He can give further salvation opportunities to scores of unsaved people by preventing the mass carnage of 9/11, wouldn't it be worth the scattering of a few atoms to do so?
    The best thing for God to do to save the most people is to let the consequences of their actions be evident.

    Please answer this, Yorzhik, because it sounds like you're dodging the question with arbitrary stipulations.
    It probably isn't important, but why did you say this? I don't think I dodged anything in any way. I did niggle before, but I *also* answered the question straightforward and completely.

    Couldn't God come up with myriad creative ways to prevent evil people from murdering innocent people who might someday get saved? Wouldn't a healthy God do something to stop the premature deaths of people who might otherwise have become believers?
    No, the best way to save the most people is let them experience the consequences of their actions.

    Please convince me of the value of thousands of people plunging into hell at the hands of the 9/11 terrorists in the eyes of a God who wants to save as many people as possible.
    Many more would not be saved if God did not allow us to experience the consequences of our actions. Even on a government policy level (and gov't has a lot to do with the number of people saved in a country), we can learn about the law. We can know that tomorrow is not promised to us.

    Are those choices free? Or are they constrained by your preferences and myriad other factors outside of your control?
    Yes, and the value you put on those factors at the time.

    If they are free, then you could choose something you do not want. But you can't.
    Right, but there are enough variables in the weight of value one would place on any particular external influence to make every choice hard to predict.

    God doesn't have to "predict."
    So decrees the mighty Hilston. God disagrees with you if what He has written in his word is true.

    He knows because He has decreed, in meticulous detail, every event, every electron orbit, every hide and hair of existence.
    So Hilston claims without support.

    If He didn't, then He could not make a single prophecy come true with any certainty.
    Sure He could. God is very smart, and thus a very good predictor. Beyond that, as creator of all things, He's very good at knowing how the things He created work. Even *I* can predict some things with great certainty without knowing the future exhaustively. I'm greater than Hilston's God.

    Another thing, sometimes when God says something will come to pass, it doesn't. If God says something about what will happen, isn't that, by definition, a prophecy?

    Is that what "they" said? Who do you think was talking? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? Was it said audibly, with vocal cords and molecular vibration? Did the other members of the Godhead hear Him say this? Was it heard with their ears, the sound waves vibrating the divine eardrum?
    I'm not sure. The bible says, "the LORD God said".

    What is the Hebrew word for "maybe", Yorzhik?
    From Tim McMahon, a Hebrew scholar: In Genesis 3:22, "lest" is a translation of the Hebrew conjunction pen, which means "lest" ("in order that... not") and is generally so translated throughout the English OT. Itís precisely the same word translated "lest" in verse 3, "lest you die."

    Do you recognize the importance of due process in scripture?
    Yes.

    How about anthropopathisms?
    Yes.

    Do you see any value in these concepts at all?
    Yes.

    So for you haven't mentioned anything that has to do with Gen 22:12.

    When you and other Open Theists take the linguistic figures of scripture and literalize them, you rob the scriptures of their force and richness. It's really tragic. The funny thing is, God saw fit to use them so frequently that you guys had plenty of fodder with which to build an entire irrational theology.
    So this is an anthropopathism? What does the figure mean? Now the way I read it, using the historical grammatical method, this is a passage that should be taken literally. It is nothing more than an historical account.

    So, Hilston says, "Now I know" does not mean "Now I know". Fair enough Ė figures mean other than what is actually written. Until Hilson tells us what it means, the only thing we can know about the meaning of this phrase is that it cannot mean "I have always known". That is the only meaning (at this point) that we can rule out as a possible meaning.

    So, Hilston, please tell us the meaning of this linguistic figure. When you are done, we should be able to replace the phrase "Now I know" with what you relate to us.

    He is 100% sure because He decreed every case without exception. If there were anything He did not decree, He would not -- could not -- coherently and honestly ask you to trust Him.
    I trust my dad, and he doesn't decree every case without exception. Are you saying I shouldn't trust God, who is perfect, without exhaustive forknowledge, but I can trust my dad, who not only cannot see very far into the future, but he is sinful as well?
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

  7. #397
    Never, never, never give up. Knight's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Z Man
    But before we can get into this discussion, you need to make it clear whether you believe God even gives people diseases to begin with. Your stand was that diseases aren't given; they come from no where. But now that I've shown you Scripture that says God does give people diseases, will you clarify your position for us all? Admit you made a mistake?
    Uh.. I am NOT gonna address this again.

    I am now going to ignore you on account that you are either rudest person in the world or the dumbest person in the world.

    I seriously see no reason to answer your question yet ONE more time.

    I have never seen anyone be so obtuse in all my life.
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    OK... so now we can move on from Z Man to you other Calvinists....

    Z Man did however answer ONE of my questions when I asked...

    Has God given EVERY disease... EVERY sickness throughtout all of history???

    And Z Man answered...
    Why not? If it wasn't God, who gave it to the person? And what makes you think that God only gives diseases to the wicked? If that's the case, why do "innocent" people get them too?
    Do the rest of you agree with Z Man that God is responsible for EVERY disease? Every sickness? And every death for all of history?

    Rolf, John Reformed, boogerhead, Hilston.....????

    What say ye?
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    Thumbs up Nice!

    Yorzhik... POTD
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    Originally posted by Knight

    Yorzhik... POTD
    Excellent choice Knight!

    Yorzhik, (how do you pronounce that anyway?)

    Excellent job! Elloquently phrased and powerfully argued!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
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    Originally posted by Z Man

    If it wasn't God, who gave it to the person? And what makes you think that God only gives diseases to the wicked? If that's the case, why do "innocent" people get them too?
    Let me understand your position...

    Are you saying that everyone who has a disease is because God orchestrated it?

    If so, would you also conclude that God orchestrates every move of man, in every area of his life?

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    Yorzhik - Great stuff. You make it sound like what God has done is ,,, wise. You even make it sound like the death penalty which is at the heart of the gospel message, should somehow make the call for salvation ,,, an urgent, important and effective one.

    But maybe the liberals know better, that we should always need more time to get saved, hmmm. Isn't there an exemption clause somewhere that says that if you are close to getting saved, that God should grant you more time so that you may get saved, like a limbo place or something, the movie Beetle Juice, lends well to that idea I think.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    Z Man - That is great, I agree that God does what He pleases, the alternative is that He would do what He would not be pleased to do. (That's just ,,, strange)

    So, getting back to what we were actually talking about. I realize that you pretty much already clarified this, but I'd like a clear answer.
    • Do you agree that God never does any sin or evil. Yes or no?
    I wonder if you can guess what my next question will be after you answer that question.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    Originally posted by Z Man

    How was my answer 'wrong'?
    It was wrong in that it contained none of the needed components that would have constituted a correct answer.

    It is possible that your answer was simply incomplete and I am assuming for the time being that this is so, otherwise I would be required to assume that you are still in your sins and are unsaved, in which case our conversations would take on a decidedly different tone.

    Please explain your answer further. When were you saved and under what circumstances did that salvation occur. Why won't you spend eternity in Hell? If God were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter Heaven?" what would be your answer?

    And just to make myself as perfectly clear as possible...
    I am not kidding around. If the answer you gave is the best that you can do at explaining why you were/are saved then you are not saved at all. I am not yet saying that you are not saved, in fact, I'll be quite surprised if it turns out that you aren't. I am only saying that the answer you gave has thrown up every red flag there is to throw. All I am asking for is a clarification from you.

    Resting in Him,
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    Last edited by Clete; June 2nd, 2004 at 08:11 PM.
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    Z Man - That is great, I agree that God does what He pleases, the alternative is that He would do what He would not be pleased to do. (That's just ,,, strange)

    So, getting back to what we were actually talking about. I realize that you pretty much already clarified this, but I'd like a clear answer.
    • Do you agree that God never does any sin or evil. Yes or no?
    I wonder if you can guess what my next question will be after you answer that question.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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