toldailytopic: The Sabbath: what is it's significance? Do you observe it? Why or why

steko · Feb 26, 2011

Buzzword said:
I'm still not sure what "observing the Sabbath" even means. Am I not allowed to do homework on the seventh day of the week?
My grades would be down the toilet if I wasted a whole day, especially given how much procrastinating I do the rest of the week.

My wife has class every Saturday because she's trying to graduate this coming May.

My dad works on Saturday because it's the busiest shopping day of the week, and thus he gets more customers during the 8 hours he's open on Saturdays than several other days of the week combined.

Rules for keeping the Sabbath:

Exo 31:12 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:13 speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Jehovah: whosoever doeth any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
whosoever doeth any work therein shall be put to death.
Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Exo 35:1 And Moses assembled all the congregation of the children of Israel, and said unto them, These are the words which Jehovah hath commanded, that ye should do them.
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of solemn rest to Jehovah:

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 26, 2011

Buzzword said:
I'm still not sure what "observing the Sabbath" even means.....

cease

Dayspring · Feb 26, 2011

The Sabbath

The Sabbath

Basicly, the Sabbath is to tell us that, hey, it's okay to chill-out. Lay back and relax with a little bit of wine.. When the work is done first. God spent the whole week creating the earth and everything on it, so there was nothing wrong with him wanting to sit back, relax, and look at all he had made. The place where that goes wrong, is when people just sit back and relax all the time, having done nothing to rest for. That's when it all goes down hill. You can and drink and lay back and relax, but all in moderation. You also have to do something other than just be lazy all the time. I mean, God has a reason to rest, he built everything. What's your reason? Did Jesus just chill out all day when he saved us? No' he hung on the cross' that he carried for us! So, if anybody deserves some time to lay back and do nothing, it would be our Savior and our Creator!

kmoney · Feb 26, 2011

ghost said:
Fixed it for you.

:chuckle:

:noid: But yeah, good correction.

keypurr · Feb 26, 2011

Remember the only God who is the creator of all. Reflect on his love and try to understand what he requires from us. Love of God is the greatest of all the Laws. It is HIS day to be honored.

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

If Jesus worked on the Sabbath Day, then what day did He rest?

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jacob · Feb 26, 2011

red cardinal said:
If Jesus worked on the Sabbath Day, then what day did He rest?

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath.

Isaiah 58:13 "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,

Isaiah 58:14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

Untellectual said:
Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath.

Isaiah 58:13 "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,

Isaiah 58:14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

I thought the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel under the old covenant? Even so, Jesus stated that He worked on the Sabbath Day - at least that is how I read it ....

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Wondering why Jesus didn't disagree with them. It's not like He didn't put them in their place other times

atrol:

Jacob · Feb 26, 2011

red cardinal said:
I thought the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel under the old covenant? Even so, Jesus stated that He worked on the Sabbath Day - at least that is how I read it ....

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Wondering why Jesus didn't disagree with them. It's not like He didn't put them in their place other times atrol:

I think He was saying He was doing the work of God.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Galatians 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

Untellectual said:
I think He was saying He was doing the work of God.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Galatians 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

I am not sure why you quoted that text, but Jesus did say "work". The work of God is still work, right?

Can you find a verse in the NT that shows we are to keep the Sabbath?

Oh, and to answer the OP - no I don't "keep" the Sabbath Day or Sunday either for that matter. I "work" 7 days a week. I never have a day of "rest". Some of us don't and I am just fine - don't need a break. I am not sure why we need a "day of rest". Personally, I think it's all hype.

If you sleep at night, seems to me that is all the rest you need. I think there are probably more people who don't rest a day a week than there are those that do. I think it's an American idea that one has to "rest" one day a week [other than Jewish people]. Just throwing that out there :wave2:

Jacob · Feb 26, 2011

red cardinal said:
I am not sure why you quoted that text, but Jesus did say "work". The work of God is still work, right?

God's work is different than a man's day of work (days 1 through 6).

From a different perspective, but for your consideration:

Matthew 12:5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Can you find a verse in the NT that shows we are to keep the Sabbath?

That's a great question. I don't know if these verses will answer your question.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

God still has commands, the question here is if hearing the word of God on the sabbath is an option for us.

Acts 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

I'm not sure if the following verse is about fast days or not.

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

Untellectual said:
God's work is different than a man's day of work (days 1 through 6).

How so? Is God not in control every day of the week? Does He not do miracles, create life every day? Are you saying that He is a "couch potato" on Saturdays? :chuckle:

From a different perspective, but for your consideration:

Matthew 12:5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? That's a great question. I don't know if these verses will answer your question.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Those are great verses. And I love them cause they show that because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then if we are in Him, we are in the Sabbath 24/7!!!

What I don't see there is a command to keep the Sabbath, though. Why do you suppose that it?

God still has commands, the question here is if hearing the word of God on the sabbath is an option for us.

Acts 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Hmmm - when I looked up Acts 15, there were only four commands and keeping the Sabbath wasn't one of them. How do you get keeping the Sabbath from verse 21? Why would a believer go to the synagogue where Jesus is not preached, but only Moses? That is weird :shocked:

I found this verse about Moses being read on the Sabbath. Funny how different it sounds here, huh?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

and then we see this!:

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

I'm not sure if the following verse is about fast days or not.

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

I think it means if you want to observe a day to honor God it's fine, but not necessary.

Jacob · Feb 26, 2011

red cardinal said:
How so? Is God not in control every day of the week? Does He not do miracles, create life every day? Are you saying that He is a "couch potato" on Saturdays? :chuckle:

Not at all. He has not ceased from His work.

Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Those are great verses. And I love them cause they show that because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then if we are in Him, we are in the Sabbath 24/7!!!

What I don't see there is a command to keep the Sabbath, though.

Not directly. What about:

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Why do you suppose that it?

Well, maybe nobody thought God's commands had come to an end. Jesus seemed to say they would not. Matthew 5:17-20.

Hmmm - when I looked up Acts 15, there were only four commands and keeping the Sabbath wasn't one of them.

Correct, not exactly. But why were they saying that Moses is read in the synagogues every sabbath if it was the alternative they had to accepting what the (sect of the) circumcision crowd was saying?

How do you get keeping the Sabbath from verse 21?

Because I don't think they were saying therefore we should not keep the sabbath.

Why would a believer go to the synagogue where Jesus is not preached, but only Moses? That is weird :shocked:

These days Jesus may not be preached in all the synagogues. But those days people did not think of Moses as serving a different God.

I found this verse about Moses being read on the Sabbath. Funny how different it sounds here, huh?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

and then we see this!:

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

I think it means if you want to observe a day to honor God it's fine, but not necessary.

That's an interpretation that some people have. I don't know that it is wrong.

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

Untellectual said:
Not at all. He has not ceased from His work.

Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.Not directly.

Ok - you said that God did not cease from His work, then quote two verses that says He did. Can you like 'splain that some?

What about:

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

I am not sure what that has to do with keeping the Sabbath today. How about the reason they kept the Sabbath in that verse is because they were not aware that the Sabbath had ceased? I was thinking about Luke 24 when Jesus had to explain that He has fulfilled all the Law and Prophets because they did not understand.

Well, maybe nobody thought God's commands had come to an end. Jesus seemed to say they would not. Matthew 5:17-20.

I think Jesus was saying there that they would not come to an end until all was fulfilled. Then later, as we read in Luke 24, He said He did fulfill them all. Do you have a different understanding of that?

And curiously, the NT never teaches to keep any of the commandments after Christ's resurrection. Do you find that odd? Even the 4 commandments in Acts 15 are not all found in the Law of Moses.

Correct, not exactly. But why were they saying that Moses is read in the synagogues every sabbath if it was the alternative they had to accepting what the (sect of the) circumcision crowd was saying?Because I don't think they were saying therefore we should not keep the sabbath.

Well, when I read Acts 15, the four laws were the sum total of what was to be kept. It was the "end of the matter according to the apostles. It seems kind of strange to me that if the Sabbath was that important, it would have been included, don't you think?

I have hi-lighted some of the phrases that I think are important:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Act 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Do you see what I see there, or actually what's not there!!!? No mention of the Sabbath, only the 4 laws - which were reiterated in Acts 21:25!

These days Jesus may not be preached in all the synagogues. But those days people did not think of Moses as serving a different God.That's an interpretation that some people have. I don't know that it is wrong.

Moses was until Christ :thumb: If you look at Heb 3 - the verses I quoted before, it says that Moses was a pattern of what was to come, but Jesus house was greater. What does that mean to you?

How about the Mt of Transfiguration - who did God say to listen to? Moses was there, Elijah was there, but God said - listen to My Son!!!!!

Synagogues, in the time of the first century, were overseen by the Pharisees and Scribes. They hated Christ, right? They plotted His death, right? So why would new believers in Christ go to a synagogue when they would not be preaching Christ, but everything that was against Him?

Let's check out what new believers and Paul did:

Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Jacob · Feb 26, 2011

red cardinal said:
Ok - you said that God did not cease from His work, then quote two verses that says He did. Can you like 'splain that some?

Sure, I was looking for a verse from texts written after Christ's ascension. But all I knew for sure was the foundational texts, so I quoted them. There are different ways you can go on this. For example, check out this link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/shabbat1.html

Or how about Hebrews 4:1-13?

I am not sure what that has to do with keeping the Sabbath today. How about the reason they kept the Sabbath in that verse is because they were not aware that the Sabbath had ceased?

That is one interpretation.

I was thinking about Luke 24 when Jesus had to explain that He has fulfilled all the Law and Prophets because they did not understand.

I can look at Luke 24 if you would like. My point from Matthew 5:17-20 is that fulfill is not the same thing as abolish.

I think Jesus was saying there that they would not come to an end until all was fulfilled. Then later, as we read in Luke 24, He said He did fulfill them all. Do you have a different understanding of that?

I don't know that it meant the abolishment of God's law, or the prophets.

And curiously, the NT never teaches to keep any of the commandments after Christ's resurrection.

I disagree, but I'm willing to let you test me on it.

Do you find that odd? Even the 4 commandments in Acts 15 are not all found in the Law of Moses.

Do you think they are not found in the Torah?

Well, when I read Acts 15, the four laws were the sum total of what was to be kept. It was the "end of the matter according to the apostles. It seems kind of strange to me that if the Sabbath was that important, it would have been included, don't you think?

It was mentioned. I don't know if that constitutes being included or not.

I have hi-lighted some of the phrases that I think are important:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Act 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Do you see what I see there, or actually what's not there!!!? No mention of the Sabbath, only the 4 laws - which were reiterated in Acts 21:25!

Moses was until Christ :thumb: If you look at Heb 3 - the verses I quoted before, it says that Moses was a pattern of what was to come, but Jesus house was greater. What does that mean to you?

To me it means Christ is greater, by so much as the builder of the house is greater (has more honor) than the house (Hebrews 3:3).

How about the Mt of Transfiguration - who did God say to listen to? Moses was there, Elijah was there, but God said - listen to My Son!!!!!

Correct.

Synagogues, in the time of the first century, were overseen by the Pharisees and Scribes. They hated Christ, right?

How do you determine this? In Jerusalem there were issues, and maybe further... but the news about Christ started in Jerusalem as well, and the early church was entirely composed of Jews.

They plotted His death, right?

Acts 3:12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, "Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk?

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.

Acts 3:14 "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,

Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Acts 3:16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

Acts 3:18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Acts 3:22 "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you.

Acts 3:23 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

So why would new believers in Christ go to a synagogue when they would not be preaching Christ, but everything that was against Him?

Because it was their custom.

Let's check out what new believers and Paul did:

Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

Acts 17:2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

red cardinal · Feb 26, 2011

Untellectual said:
My point from Matthew 5:17-20 is that fulfill is not the same thing as abolish.

I agree that the laws were not abolished, but they were fulfilled and replaced - they ended. They still exist on "paper", but are no longer valid. The Law was old covenant. The Law was a pattern of what was to come in Christ - if we have Christ, then why would we still need to keep working on the pattern? :Shimei: Some of the verses that I had quoted show that the old covenant Law came to an end.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

but I'm willing to let you test me on it.Do you think they are not found in the Torah?

Here is the list of the four laws:

* abstain from pollutions of idols, and
* from fornication, and
* from things strangled, and
* from blood.

What verses in Torah would you say apply to these?

It was mentioned.

The Sabbath was only mentioned in passing - during the discussion with the apostles, but when the decision was written down and passed along, there was no mention of the Sabbath to the people that the laws were given for!

To me it means Christ is greater, by so much as the builder of the house is greater (has more honor) than the house (Hebrews 3:3).

So if Christ is greater, has more honor, then why go back to the one with less honor? Where are the Laws of Moses spoken of, instructed in the NT after Jesus' ascension? That is really the defining point, I think.

How do you determine this? In Jerusalem there were issues, and maybe further... but the news about Christ started in Jerusalem as well, and the early church was entirely composed of Jews.

The new believers did not go to the synagogues though! They worshiped at the Temple to witness, but first met in homes to be encouraged, to pray, to break bread daily so they could go out and preach the Gospel. They did not go to the synagogues or they would have been thrown out - which is what eventually happened to Paul!

Because it was their custom.Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

Agreed - that was Jesus' custom, before Calvary. After He died and was raised He did not go to the synagogues any more. Jesus went to the syn to show that He was the Messiah. He went to heal the sick and forgive sins. This incensed the Pharisees so much that they plotted His death

Acts 17:2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

And why did Paul go to the syn? To reason the Scriptures - aka preach the Gospel.

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Act 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
Act 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
Act 13:18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
Act 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
Act 13:20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
Act 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Act 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

JoeyArnold · Feb 26, 2011

Knight said:
So... do you observe the Sabbath?

I try observing Moment Sabbaths, Daily Sabbaths, Weekly Sabbaths, Monthly Sabbaths, Yearly Sabbaths, other kinds of Sabbaths, and eternal-life Sabbaths. God commanded the Jews to rest on the last day of the week. That must be from sun-down Fridays till the evenings of Saturdays. Then people came up with the idea of this Sunday Lord's Day. Christians may argue with Jews about the Sabbath and the Lord's Day. But I would rather somehow believe in both.

Jacob · Feb 27, 2011

The Law -- Jesus and the Commands of God <-- TOL LINK.

I have posted the commands of God, particularly the ten commands, and their NT correspondance, throughout this thread (old though, (started over a year ago) I know). I believe it is good for something. I do not believe I am under the law, but under grace.

red cardinal said:
I agree that the laws were not abolished, but they were fulfilled and replaced - they ended.

To me that means you think they were abolished, or anulled.

They still exist on "paper", but are no longer valid. The Law was old covenant. The Law was a pattern of what was to come in Christ - if we have Christ, then why would we still need to keep working on the pattern? :Shimei: Some of the verses that I had quoted show that the old covenant Law came to an end.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Yes, from Jeremiah.

Here is the list of the four laws:

* abstain from pollutions of idols, and
* from fornication, and
* from things strangled, and
* from blood.

What verses in Torah would you say apply to these?

I just found these links here. You may find similar through your own searches.

Idolotry: 312-357. See the 613 commandments, as referenced here, in this link: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Fornication: Genesis 38:24-26; 34:7;Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 22:22

Things strangled: "What does these principles refer to; abstaining from blood, meat offered to idols and things strangled and from fornication?" http://www.scribd.com/doc/22012462/The-613-Commandments-and-the-10-Commandments-Part-1

Blood: "(17) not to eat blood;" http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm Same... just found this link.

The Sabbath was only mentioned in passing - during the discussion with the apostles, but when the decision was written down and passed along, there was no mention of the Sabbath to the people that the laws were given for!

Correct. But it had been involved in their discussion.

So if Christ is greater, has more honor, then why go back to the one with less honor?

You have a good point. In my case I learn more about Jesus and righteousness when I learn about God's law. Psalm 119. I am a Gentile by birth.

Where are the Laws of Moses spoken of, instructed in the NT after Jesus' ascension? That is really the defining point, I think.

See my first link in this post. There are a lot of posts in that thread, but in my mind they progressed. You can copy them (the references/verses) for your own studies if you would like.

The new believers did not go to the synagogues though! They worshiped at the Temple to witness, but first met in homes to be encouraged, to pray, to break bread daily so they could go out and preach the Gospel. They did not go to the synagogues or they would have been thrown out - which is what eventually happened to Paul!

Even when Paul "went to the Gentiles", he always went to the synagogues first. He loved Christ and loved the people he was connected to by birth. To the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Agreed - that was Jesus' custom, before Calvary. After He died and was raised He did not go to the synagogues any more. Jesus went to the syn to show that He was the Messiah. He went to heal the sick and forgive sins. This incensed the Pharisees so much that they plotted His death

And why did Paul go to the syn? To reason the Scriptures - aka preach the Gospel.

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Act 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
Act 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
Act 13:18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
Act 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
Act 13:20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
Act 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Act 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Jacob · Feb 27, 2011

There is a Psalm for the Sabbath day

There is a Psalm for the Sabbath day

Psalm 92:1 A Psalm, a Song for the Sabbath day. It is good to give thanks to the LORD And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High;

Psalm 92:2 To declare Your lovingkindness in the morning And Your faithfulness by night,

Psalm 92:3 With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp, With resounding music upon the lyre.

Psalm 92:4 For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You have done, I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands.

Psalm 92:5 How great are Your works, O LORD! Your thoughts are very deep.

Psalm 92:6 A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this:

Psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

Psalm 92:8 But You, O LORD, are on high forever.

Psalm 92:9 For, behold, Your enemies, O LORD, For, behold, Your enemies will perish; All who do iniquity will be scattered.

Psalm 92:10 But You have exalted my horn like that of the wild ox; I have been anointed with fresh oil.

Psalm 92:11 And my eye has looked exultantly upon my foes, My ears hear of the evildoers who rise up against me.

Psalm 92:12 The righteous man will flourish like the palm tree, He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

Psalm 92:13 Planted in the house of the LORD, They will flourish in the courts of our God.

Psalm 92:14 They will still yield fruit in old age; They shall be full of sap and very green,

Psalm 92:15 To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

amosman · Feb 27, 2011

Knight said:
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 25th, 2011 09:19 AM

toldailytopic: The Sabbath: what is it's significance? Do you observe it? Why or why not?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

One of the reasons for the Shabbot is as a reminder that YHVH created all things in heaven and earth in six days. Those that forget the Shabbot are more likely to believe something like billions of years and evolution.

Another reason for Shabbot is as a sign between YHVH and His people. So who are His people? Isaiah says that all those that join themselves to the LORD weather Jew or a foreigner, are His people.

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that holdeth it fast; that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isa 56:3 Neither let the foreigner, that hath joined himself to Jehovah, speak, saying, Jehovah will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

toldailytopic: The Sabbath: what is it's significance? Do you observe it? Why or why

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