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Thread: Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VIII

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    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
    I am almost ashamed to call myself a dispensationalist because I do not want anyone to think that I subscribe to the beliefs put forward by you(1Way) and those at the Derby School of Theology.
    Hi Jerry. I think it is awesome that you debate issues on salvation. You are right, it was only by faith.

    The original dispensationalism had nothing to do with salvation, or did it? As you porbably know there is an "updated" Scofield reference Bible. You have to ask yourself Jerry, why did they need to update it? And what were the updates? In short it did have to do with salvation. Scofield never once mentioned that the OT saint were saved by works but he did imply it. SO the "updated" version fixed that. 1Way is representing dispensationalism the way it was created.


    It is sad to hear that you are a dispensationalist. But I really believe you are much smarter than that system. In fact, most people are. Jerry i hope you study this system like I have. If I was to show you all they teach, I bet most of the time you would say "i don't believe in that". My reply would to agree with you. The entire system is silly.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nimrod
    Hi Jerry. I think it is awesome that you debate issues on salvation. You are right, it was only by faith.
    Nimrod,

    Thanks!
    The original dispensationalism had nothing to do with salvation, or did it? As you porbably know there is an "updated" Scofield reference Bible. You have to ask yourself Jerry, why did they need to update it? And what were the updates? In short it did have to do with salvation.
    Just because there was one "mis-statement" in the original Scofield study Bible does not mean that the whole system is in error.
    Scofield never once mentioned that the OT saint were saved by works but he did imply it. SO the "updated" version fixed that. 1Way is representing dispensationalism the way it was created.
    No,it was not "created" in that way.There were many dispensational teachers before the original Scofield Study Bible even existed that taught that no one was saved by "works".
    It is sad to hear that you are a dispensationalist.
    The Apostle Paul himself was a "dispensationalist",and this is plain by his many references to the various dispensations as well as his many uses of the word "dispensations".

    Is it "sad" that Paul himself was a "dispensationalist"?
    Jerry i hope you study this system like I have.
    I wonder what "system" you do believe in.Perhaps it is that system that is forced to "spiritualize" away all the unfulfilled prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.That "system" is forced to place a meaning on those prophecies that no longer even resembles what is originally said.In fact,those perversions which do not even resemble what is originally prophesised can only be described as "silly".

    In His grace,--Jerry

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    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

    Nimrod, Thanks!

    The Apostle Paul himself was a "dispensationalist",and this is plain by his many references to the various dispensations as well as his many uses of the word "dispensations".

    Is it "sad" that Paul himself was a "dispensationalist"?
    Well I certaining believe in dispensations. After all, I don't bring goats to service. We all agree there are two dispensations, one of the OT and one for the NT. But remember that not all of the teachers of dispensationalism agree on the start and finish of the seven dispensations. Why don't they? Hmmmmmm.

    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
    I wonder what "system" you do believe in.Perhaps it is that system that is forced to "spiritualize" away all the unfulfilled prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.That "system" is forced to place a meaning on those prophecies that no longer even resembles what is originally said.In fact,those perversions which do not even resemble what is originally prophesised can only be described as "silly".

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. When it comes to interpret Scripture, we look to how it was done by the saints in the Scriptures.

    As we look at the very first prophecy in Scriptures. Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Tell me Jerry, how was that fulfilled literally? Didn't you learn anything from Dee Dee Warren.

    Jerry, when you read poetry, do you try to understand everything as literal? I know I don't. Would you agree that parts of Psalms is poetry?

    Luke 24:44 Jesus said "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,". How do you interpret this verse literally? Were all things fulfilled in the OT about Christ? As it turns out. You don't take eveything literally.

    God Bless

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nimrod
    Well I certaining believe in dispensations. After all, I don't bring goats to service. We all agree there are two dispensations, one of the OT and one for the NT.
    Nimrod,

    If all believe this why do some continue to insist that we should follow "the Law" (the OT)?
    But remember that not all of the teachers of dispensationalism agree on the start and finish of the seven dispensations. Why don't they? Hmmmmmm.
    Some dispensationalists have a better understanding of the various dispensations than others do.
    Didn't you learn anything from Dee Dee Warren.
    I learned that when it comes to interpreting unfulfilled prophecies the Preterists are clueless.
    Jerry, when you read poetry, do you try to understand everything as literal? I know I don't. Would you agree that parts of Psalms is poetry?
    If there is a good reason for not taking things of the Bible in a "literal" sense then they must be taken figuratively.However,when there is no reason to take things in a figurative sense then we must attempt to put a "literal" meaning upon them.
    Luke 24:44 Jesus said "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,". How do you interpret this verse literally? Were all things fulfilled in the OT about Christ? As it turns out. You don't take eveything literally.
    Do you not believe that "all" things concerning Him that are written in the OT will indeed come to pass?

    In His grace,--Jerry

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    There are but 2 covenants--the old & the new. We live under a New Covenant. Nimrod is correct in stating:

    "But remember that not all of the teachers of dispensationalism agree on the start and finish of the seven dispensations. Why don't they? Hmmmmmm."

    The Scriptural record however clearly makes a divison with the old and new covenants. To take a more biblical balanced approach one should look into covenant theology--that focuses on the realities of the Old and New Covenants.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
    Nimrod,

    If all believe this why do some continue to insist that we should follow "the Law" (the OT)?
    The LAW was never done away with. In this dispensation God no longer wants animal sacrifice and anything related to it. (see hebrews).

    Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW. Here is one of them. Proverbs 3:1-2 "1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. ". To summarize, God will bless us.


    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
    If there is a good reason for not taking things of the Bible in a "literal" sense then they must be taken figuratively.However,when there is no reason to take things in a figurative sense then we must attempt to put a "literal" meaning upon them.
    Now don't get me wrong, I do believe that some of the OT prophecies were fulfilled literally to the very fine point of detail. But some others were fulfilled spirtually. See Acts 15:12-19, OT prophecy fulfilled through the believing gentiles(spirtual Israel).

    A combination of a literal and spiritual approach in interpreting prophecy is warranted by the NT itself. This fact militates against the dispensationalist insistence upon a strict literalism in its hermeneutics. As Charles Hodge says in his Systematic Theology,
    Two things are remarkable about the prophecies of Scripture, which have already been accomplished. The one is that the fulfillment has, in many cases, been very different from that which a literal interpretation led men to anticipate. The other is, that in some cases they have been fulfilled even to the most minute details. These facts should render us modest in our interpretation of those predictions which remain to be accomplished; satisfied that what we know not now what we shall know hereafter. (pp. 845-850)

    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
    Do you not believe that "all" things concerning Him that are written in the OT will indeed come to pass?

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Right now, I do believe that all prophecies in the OT about Christ has already come to pass, in fact I have a discussion going on in the eschatology forum. take a look. LINK

    God Bless

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nimrod

    The LAW was never done away with.
    To the believer in Christ the law is dead according to the Scriptural record...

    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...

    When you're dead to the law you are dead to it. Case close.

    Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW.
    doesn't sound like you're a believer...

    The Scripures teach...

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Freak

    To the believer in Christ the law is dead according to the Scriptural record...
    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...
    When you're dead to the law you are dead to it. Case close.
    2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"


    Mt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Jesus did not come to destroy the law.

    Mt 22:37-46 " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus gave us two great commandments which sum up the Law. He never done away with it.

    Paul said in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Paul never made void the law.

    I guess the verse u are referring to must be in second opinions or first Ahab.


    Originally posted by Freak
    The Scripures teach..

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
    Amen. No one can ever be declared righteous by observing the law. So in that sense we are dead to the law. We are new creatures in Christ, but we still observe the law because we love Christ, and we do what He tells us to do. And one of the things He asks us to do is the two greatest commandments which summarizes the Law.

    John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." What commandments is Jesus talking about Freak?

    John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"

    God bless.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nimrod
    The LAW was never done away with.
    Nimrod,

    First of all,Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that they are "not under the law"(Ro.6:14).

    In fact,the Gentiles were never under "the law":

    "For when the Gentiles, who have not the law..."(Ro.2:14).

    And when some in the Jerusalem church attempted to place the Gentiles under the law,it was decided that they were not obligated to keep the law.

    So even though those in the Body who walk in the Spirit establish the law,the Gentiles were never obligated to keep the law.
    Right now, I do believe that all prophecies in the OT about Christ has already come to pass...
    Perhaps you can tell me when the folllowing prophecy was fulfilled:

    "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

    Now we can see if you have a "reasonable" answer as to when this happened.

    In His grace,--Jerry

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    Originally posted by Nimrod
    Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW. Here is one of them. Proverbs 3:1-2 "1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. ". To summarize, God will bless us.
    Nimrod,

    You left out the part that speaks of doing "all things that are written in the book of the law":

    "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them"(Deut.27:26).

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"(Gal.3:10).

    Even though Paul tells us that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"(Gal.3:13),you seem to want to go back to the very thing that Paul calls "weak and beggarly elements"--the law!

    In His grace,--Jerry

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    In Romans 6:14 "Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace". Paul must be talking about salvation. Why else would he say grace? For those who want to get saved by keeping the law they must keep all aspects of it and never fail at one point. Which is impossible, but those who are without Christ are in this position. Those in Christ are no longer under the condemnation of the law but under grace. Since the righteousness secured by Christ comes upon the sinner through faith, manifestly the works of the Law can have nothing to do with our obtainning of it. But so far is faith-rightousness from undermining the Law, that Paul claims that through faith the Law is established (3:31). Jerry you never answered Jesus statements about the Law and His commandments. Both Christ and Paul asked believers to observe the Law(not the sacrifical). It was never done away with.

    Jerry now states that the Gentiles were never under "the law". These same gentiles will "perish without the law". So this can't be referring to us believers. Now to the believing gentiles(spirtual Israel), they are to keep the moral law but not the sacrifical law, circumcison, ceremonial law (not including the sabbath), but they are to refrain from drinking blood. Remember no one is saved by observing the law, we are blessed by God when we do so.


    When was Zech 12:8-9 fulfilled. Since Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, then the events outlined in verses 1–9 had to have been fulfilled some time prior to Jesus’ crucifixion. In order for dispensationalists to make their position work, they must reverse the chronology of the chapter by placing the events of verses 1–9 after verse ten. I maintain that it was fulfilled during Ester's time. See
    LINK

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    Jerry you are mixed up, thinking like a true dispensationalist. Righteousness never came by observing the LAW. To think that one is righteous by keeping the law is cursed because you can't do it.

    The Law was essentially a works system that resulted in either blessings or cursings (Deuteronomy 28-30). It was based on what one did, not on what one believed. The function of the LAW was not to give life but to guide life.

    Gal 3:11 a verse you conviently missed says " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,". This part of Gal. is talking about being justified or salvation. Christ took care of the requirements for salvation for us. Nevertheless, now that we are believers and can never lose our salvation we should observe the Law because that is what Christ and Paul said about the law.

    When the verse has the work "law" in it, you have to take one step furthur to see if it is referring to salvation or not. Paul clearly stated that we should not make the law void.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nimrod

    No one can ever be declared righteous by observing the law. So in that sense we are dead to the law.
    Okay...then you say this:

    We are new creatures in Christ, but we still observe the law because we love Christ, and we do what He tells us to do.
    All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

    Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

    Note the bold, Nimrod.

    John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." What commandments is Jesus talking about Freak?
    That's easy the Bible says,

    And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ...

    Homework for Nimrod:

    What does this verse mean to you?

    Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
    Jesus Loves You

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    2005473
    Nimrod,

    I asked you when the following prophecy was fulfilled:

    "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

    You said,"I maintain that it was fulfilled during Ester's time".

    The writer of the link which you provided is so confused that he thinks that the events described in the book of Esther is in regard to "Jerusalem".But the events described in that book happened in Persia,and not in Jerusalem!

    This is your "reasonable" answer!

    In HIs grace,--Jerry

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