User Tag List

Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst ... 2345678 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 122

Thread: Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VIII

  1. #61
    Journeyman GodsfreeWill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    179
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    17302
    Jerry answered "2" of Jeremy's 13 questios in his last post. Maybe if you didn't post so soon you'd have time to answer them. The reason Jeremy asked you so many questions is because you DIDN'T answer them previously in the debate. That is why he hasn't answered yours yet, (from round 4) and said he WOULD answer them in his next post. He can't proceed to continue to answer all your new questions when you have the majority of his previous questions unanswered.


    Jerry's BIGGEST problem is that he thinks "believing in Him" means believing in Jesus death, burial and resurrection. Well, it doesn't Jerry. No one outside of Paul teaches that, whihc is why you resort to him post after post. In case you forgot, Jeremy agrees with every single Pauline scripture you've put forth, and believes it applies to today. But we are now talking pre-pauline to those millions and millions of people who lived before Paul was ever even born, who also were given the chance to be saved. Do you "believe in Him" Jerry? I don't think you do. "Believing in Him" which you've rightly noted that John and Peter both believed and taught, means believing in what He taught, more specifically, what He taught for salvation. Christ Himself taught a works-oriented salvation.

    Mark 16
    15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.


    What's that gospel Jerry? Read on...

    He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
    17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
    18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."


    It seems that you must be baptized to be saved. Christ also said that "these signs" will follow those who believed. Have those signs followed any of your "baptize and believing?" Yeah, me neither.

    Christ also said you must keep His commandments to be saved.

    Matthew 19
    16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"


    How does Christ respond?

    17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
    "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

  2. #62
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Originally posted by doogieduff

    I don't believe you...
    Like I'm concerned by what a poster by the name of doogie thinks of me.
    Jesus Loves You

  3. #63
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Originally posted by doogieduff

    Christ Himself taught a works-oriented salvation.
    And you call yourself a Christian. Go figure.
    Jesus Loves You

  4. #64
    Over 3000 post club Lucky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    south Texas
    Posts
    3,238
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    606
    Originally posted by doogieduff

    You resort to putting it down without even showing why. I don't believe you...
    Would you believe someone if they praised it without showing why? Because, if you did, that wouldn't make much sense now would it?
    grace & peace

  5. #65
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Jerry spanked the young man like he's never been spanked before.
    Jesus Loves You

  6. #66
    Journeyman *Acts9_12Out*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Littleton, CO
    Posts
    179
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    172
    Jerry,

    You open Round V with numerous Pauline references. I agree with every single Pauline reference. Why does Paul make these statements? People were attempting to justify themselves by doing fleshly law works. They had gone away from God's principle of pursuing the law by faith. Paul addresses this issue for us.

    Romans 9
    30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
    31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[/b] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
    You see Jerry, the Jews were attempting to justify themselves by doing works of the law apart from faith in God. Again, the principle I set forth in Round I was God asks man to show faith in different ways. When you quote Paul stating that "no one" can be justified by works of the law, that's absolutely true. Works of the law will not justify. However, OT believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping God's law. Again, where you are confused is, you think I'm saying "works" justified. I am not saying this. What "justifies" is doing what God asks. You argue that "faith" justifies, but what you have failed to define is, "faith in what?" You quote passages that say, "believe in Him" (Christ) or "believe in Him who sent Me" (God), but what does it mean to "believe in God or Christ?" I have shown that "believing in God or Christ" means doing whatever God / Christ asks. If God asked circumcision believers to show faith by keeping the law, that's what they needed to do. If God asks us to "believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ," that's what we need to do.

    Next, you respond to Matthew 19:17. I said,

    Jesus’ response to the question is, ”Keep the commandments.” Jesus goes on to again quote the Mosaic Law. How much clearer could it be Jerry?
    You respond,

    It is too bad that Jeremy did not quote the rest of the Lord’s discourse.After the rich man went away the Lord Jesus told His disciples that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of heaven.
    You fail to address the issue. I ask again, if the above statement is not true, why would Christ deceive this man? If I had leukemia, and I asked Jerry, “Jerry, what can I do to help my leukemia?” Would it make any sense for Jerry to say, “Well Jeremy, if you eat four Big Macs a day, the leukemia will go away.”? Wouldn’t it make more sense if Jerry told me the truth? Wouldn’t we expect Jerry to say, “You should see an oncologist. Maybe the doctor can help you find a person in your family that would match your bone marrow for a transplant.”? Why would Christ respond with an answer that is so far in left field? He didn’t… He was telling the young man the truth. Next, I asked,

    If Christ did not believe in a “faith / works” program, why would He tell the lawyer and young man a lie? Was Christ attempting to intentionally deceive these men Jerry?
    You respond,

    Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin.”The law was to “convict” the Jew of his sinfulness so that he would realize that he was in need of a Savior to save him from the penalty and defilement of his sins.Instead of just leaving the rich man should have said that he is a sinner and cannot keep the law and beg for the Lord’s mercy.
    Again, you fail to answer the question. Did Jesus tell the rich young ruler something that was not true? Next, you say,

    In my very first post in this debate I pointed out that Paul uses the example of David as a man who is justified before God apart from works—“to him that worketh not”(Ro.3:5).

    But Jeremy still refuses to reconcile his view that David was required to do “works” in order to be saved with Paul’s words that it is the sinner who “worketh not but believeth” who is justified before God.
    Jerry, I have answered this numerous times. To humor you, I will answer again. Paul makes this point in light of his statements in Romans 9:30-32. David's works did not save him. David was justified by faith in God. How did David show he had faith in God? By attempting to keep the law. When David failed, he repented. Even though David's sins were deserving of death, Paul tells us that God graced David out and allowed him to live. Remember, David was a man after God's own heart. God promised that the seed of David would sit on an everlasting throne. God fraced David out of a situation that deserved death. That's why Paul quotes David in Psalm 32.

    Romans 4
    6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
    Again, Paul argues the same point Peter argues in Acts 11. David, just like members of the body of Christ, was justified by faith in God. David's works did not save him. David was saved (and spared) because he had faith in God and did what God asked. You continue,

    That does not answer my question and Jeremy knows it!We are discussing how David was “justified” and not whether or not David was spared by grace or not.Paul uses David as an example someone who lived under the law and he was justified before God apart from works—”to him that worketh not”!:
    David was justified by faith in God. David followed God's commandments and kept the law by faith. The work did not save David, God saved David when he showed he had faith. Next, Jerry seems to continue to misunderstand me.

    But since it is impossible to reconcile the idea that “works” are required for justification with Paul’s teaching that it is he who “worketh not” Jeremy does not even try.
    Jerry... How many times do I need to say this? God changes the way He asks man to show faith! Under the law, God asks man to show faith by attempting to keep the law. In the body of Christ, God asks man to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection. We both have the same faith in God, but that faith is manifested in different ways. Is it really that difficult Jerry? Next, you are critical of my comments on Rom 6:23.

    Jeremy forgets that in this debate he is arguing just the opposite—that at one time works were required for salvation.In order to get around the fact that “works” were never required for the “free gift” of eternal life,he argues that the works in themselves did not save but were just a demonsration of faith.But if “works” were required in order to demonstrate faith and faith is necessary for salvation,then it is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Jeremy is teaching that “works” are required for salvation.And not only that,he also teaches that the Jews must be “justified” by “works”.So it is beyond me how Jeremy can say that he is “not saying that ‘works are required’ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life!
    Jerry seems to see the light and sort of understand what I'm saying. What Jerry fails to understand is, I'm arguing that man is justified by faith in God. Jerry fails to understand that I argue that same faith in God is shown in different ways. Jerry fails to understand that God sets the "house rules" for man, and determines how he wants man to show faith. Jerry, do you agree that a "dispensation" is the method by which God deals with man? Do you agree that a dispensation is God's set of "house rules" or marching orders for man? You continue,

    When a “gospel” went to the Jews after the resurrection the “message” is the fact that the Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah,the Son of God.On the day of Pentecost Peter used the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus to prove that Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah:

    ” Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”(Acts2:36).
    Once again, Jerry fails to continue with the context. Here is Jerry's summary of Acts 2...

    Those Jews who believed this “good news” were “born of God” at the very moment they believed.They were “regenerated” or “born again” when they believed that the Lord Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God:
    Too bad Peter disagrees with Jerry...

    Acts 2
    38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Peter, under the gospel of the circumcision tells these Jewish believers that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. After they show their faith by being water baptized, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are born again. This is another one of those "everlasting covenants" that Jerry despises. Water baptism was in effect for the nation of Israel. This faithful ordinance was established back in Numbers 19.

    Numbers 19
    9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
    10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.
    17 And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin,
    21a It shall be a perpetual statute for them.
    Notice Jerry, it is water of purification from sin! How long will this ordinance last for Israel? It will last forever! It is a perpetual statute for Israel! Who was Peter addressing on the day of Pentecost? The nation of Israel!

    Acts 2
    5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
    10b visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
    22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-
    Peter's audience on the day of Pentecost was the nation of Israel Jerry. Peter admonished them to show their faith by submitting to water baptism for purification from sin. It was a perpetual statute for them. Now, Jerry, I know you're going to ask, so I'll answer before you ask. No, the water did not save them. The water was not in any way magical. The children of Israel were asked to show their faith by submitting to water baptism. When they responded by faith and submitted to the rite of water baptism, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You continue with Peter,

    He seems to think Peter did not preach a “faith only” meassage to Cornelius and his household:
    Um, he didn't...

    Acts 10:35
    35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
    Jerry continues,

    And while Peter was saying those words the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and all those in his household!They were saved without doing any works.Peter was not preaching a message demanding “works of righteousness” for salvation.He said that those who “believe” will receive the remission of sin—“faith only”.
    That's right! Why did God save them before they showed their faith in a physical way? Because God started the body of Christ in Acts 9 with Paul's conversion. God's house rules changed Jerry. What did Peter do when God interrupted him? He went on with the circumcision message he knew...

    Acts 10
    45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
    Why were they "astonished" Jerry? Because they received the Holy Spirit before being baptized! They had never encountered this before! Let's continue,

    Acts 10
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
    47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
    Then they asked him to stay a few days.
    Peter continues with the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. What Peter does not realize is that God changed His house rules and no longer required water baptism for salvation. Peter went on with his circumcision message... Next, Jerry jumps to 1 John 5:11. Talk about beating a dead horse! Let's look at the context again Jerry...

    1 John 5
    1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    John opens with MOTS Jerry... Keep His Commandments!

    1 John 5
    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
    11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    Jerry, you fail to interpret this verse within it's context. They love God "if they keep His commandments" by faith. How do they show that they "believe God?" By doing what God asks them to do by faith. If they show that they love God and "keep His commandments" by faith, they possess eternal life. Let's continue,

    1 John 5
    12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
    Jerry, what are "these things" John has written "that they may know they have eternal life?" The theme in 1 John is "Keep my commandments!" Let's keep going...

    1 John 5
    14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
    15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
    Is this true for the body of Christ Jerry? Do you get everything you pray for? Me neither... Once you understand that 1 John is written to the circumcision believers, and not the body of Christ, you no longer have to do your typing gymnastics to attempt to explain away the problems. Let's continue,

    1 John 5
    16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
    17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
    Now, what's going on here Jerry? You argue that if a person under the law sinned, he died physically. In light of all the information I have provided concerning Numbers 15 and Hebrews 10:26-29, we can see that John is referring to different types of sin. There are some "unintentional sins" which can be forgiven. There are certain "presumptous" sins that a brother could commit that would result in spiritual death. That's why John admonishes them to pray for their brother "who is sinning a sin which does not lead to death." If a brother is committing an "unintentional sin" they should pray for that brother. If they see a brother sinning a "presumptous or intentional" sin, John says they are lost, and should not pray for that brother. Let's continue,

    1 John 5
    18a We know that whoever is born of God does not sin;
    Now Jerry, are you going to argue that believers do not sin, ever? In light of all the information I have provided, John is referring to "presumptous" sin. Whoever is born of God does not sin intentionally. If they do sin intentionally, they should not be prayed for and are lost (Num 15:32; Heb 10:26-29). 1 John 5:11 needs to be interpreted in light of this truth Jerry. John is writing to circumcision believers who are under a conditional program. If they love God, they keep His commandments. If they keep His commandments "by faith" they possess eternal life. If they sin "unintentionally" they can confess (1 John 1:9) to be forgiven. Their brethren can pray for them. If they sin "presumptously or intentionally," they are lost. Their brethren should not pray for them because they are lost. Next, you move on to Matthew 10:28,

    ”And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish;neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.My Father,who gave them to Me…”(Jn.10:28,29).

    Here Jeremy is forced to violate a principle of sound Bibical exegesis when he adds “conditions” to the Lord’s “unconditional” statement.Jeremy just cannot deal with the Scriptures as they are written or else he must admit that his ideas are wrong.Also, the Lord Jesus said that those who He has given eternal life were given to Him by the Father:
    Jerry, you have done nothing to show that this is an unconditional statement. The circumcision gospel is full of conditions and must be interpreted as such! How does Jesus "give" eternal life? They receive it after they show that they have faith. As long as they continue to abide in Him, they will never perish. No one is able to take the salvation from them, but they can lose it themselves. If they sin "intentionally" they can fall away and lose it (1 John 5; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20). Next, Jerry jumps to Judas...

    ”And this is the Father’s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He hath given Me I should lose nothing,but should raise them up again at the last day”(Jn.6:39).
    Jeremy knows that this verse is devestaing to his teaching,so he says that the Lord did not do the will of the Father because Judas was lost!He says:
    Judas is another example of one who “possessed eternal life,” fell away, and went to hell. The Father gave Judas to Christ, and Judas was lost…
    Despite the fact that the Lord Jesus said that He came to do the Father’s will and the Father’s will is that He should lose “none” of those who were given to Him by the Father,Jeremy says that “the Father gave Judas to Christ,but Judas was lost!”
    Jesus did not "lose" Judas. Judas freely chose to betray Christ and reject God's commands for him. All that remain faithful under the circumcision gospel will be raised up in the last day. This is the will of God. Christ chose the 12, but knew Judas' heart. Jesus called Judas a devil! How did Jesus know Judas was a devil? Because Judas fell away and no loger believed in Him. Judas freely fell away, Christ did not lose Him. Next, Jerry comments on eternal security for circumcision believers.

    Despite all of Jeremy’s protests to the contrary,there can be no doubt that the Jewish believers did in fact possess “eternal security”.The Jewish believers were told that they already possess a life in the Son that will not end.The Lord Jesus said that those who have been given eternal life shall not perish and that He will lose none of those who were given to Him by the Father.Jude thells them that they are “preserved” in Jesus Christ:
    Jerry, how many times do we need to go over this? I have already provided Numbers 15; Matthew 24:13; John 15; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20,21; Rev 3:5. Circumcision believers could lose their salvation. Circumcision believers could committ a sin that led to death. They could be lost! There no longer remains a sacrifice for their intentional sin. The body of Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and we cannot lose our salvation.

    In my next post, I will respond to Jerry's comments on my questions, and then I will answer his questions...

    --Jeremy
    Do you desire to make all men see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery? (Eph 3:9)

  7. #67
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,875
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,379 Times in 4,792 Posts

    Mentioned
    81 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147779
    Jeremy,

    In case you forgot,this is what you said in your first post in the debate:
    To summarize, the uncircumcision gospel is rooted in “justification apart from works” (Genesis 15:6 & Abram) while the circumcision gospel is rooted in “justification by faith works (Genesis 17, 22 & Abraham).
    According to you the Jew was "justified by faith works".But now you say:
    Again, where you are confused is, you think I'm saying "works" justified. I am not saying this.
    Which is it,Jeremy?At first you say that the circumcision gospel is rooted in justification by faith works.Now you write that you are not saying that "works" justified!

    You want it both ways.And the only way that you can justify your teaching is by contradicting yourself!

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; April 14th, 2004 at 10:44 AM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  9. #68
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

    Jeremy,

    In case you forgot,this is what you said in your first post in the debate:


    According to you the Jew was "justified by faith works".But now you say:

    Which is it,Jeremy?At first you say that the circumcision gospel is rooted in justification by faith works.Now you write that you are not saying that "works" justified!

    You want it both ways.And the only way that you can justify your teaching is by contradicting yourself!

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Jerry, Jeremy is what the Scripture calls a "double-minded" person.
    Jesus Loves You

  10. #69
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,206
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    210
    Freak and Jerry - You openly pervert in order to argue your point. Jeremy stipulated faith works, as contrasted against works alone. They are very similar but different issues. God always requires faith to be right with Him, but what God has required to obey Him in faith unto salvation has changed from prior to this current dispensation of mystery and grace. Today works are forbidden for salvation, back then continuing in works your whole life was “required” for saving “faith”. So no one was ever saved by works alone, but you could loose your salvation if you rejected the works that God required for saving faith in Him.

    Jerry, for you to not understand this distinction that I am sure Jeremy (and preiously myself) made clear, means you don’t even understand what you argue against.
    Last edited by 1Way; April 19th, 2004 at 04:57 PM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  11. #70
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Originally posted by 1Way

    ... but you could loose your salvation if you rejected the works that God required for saving faith in Him.
    That's why many on TOL simply dismiss you as a novice due to these kinds of statements.

    Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior stated:

    I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

    What part of never are you having trouble grasping? Stop being "nicer then God."
    Jesus Loves You

  12. #71
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,206
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    210
    Freak - Jesus did not explain everything in that one portion of text, and He did not overturn nor contradict His other statements, particularly that to become saved, you must keep the commandments.

    Obeying God’s requirements for salvation is a gospel truth, salvation means “eternal life” with God, hence you would “never die” if you are saved, so that statement is synonymous with the gift and what the gift implies, not the requirements to have or keep the gift.

    Today, once we get the gift of salvation, we can “not” loose it, however back then, you could loose that gift. Stop confusing the nature of the gift, with the nature of what is required to recieve or keep the gift.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  13. #72
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    3,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    228
    Originally posted by 1Way

    Freak - Jesus did not explain everything in that one portion of text,
    The text is quite clear:

    On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
    "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
    Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
    Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
    "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

    Martha understood the Lord but you don't. Says much about your spiritual condition, 1way. You like the other double minded inviduals go to great pains to ignoring the clairty of God's Word. This perversion must be repented of.

    Jesus said: ...whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

    The text is so clear.

    and He did not overturn nor contradict His other statements, particularly that to become saved, you must keep the commandments.
    You mean like this:

    Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


    Obeying God’s requirements for salvation is a gospel truth,
    You spiritual liar. You state that despite what the apostle Paul says:

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    Paul said "no one." No one. Period!

    Today, once we get the gift of salvation, we can “not” loose it, however back then, you could loose that gift.
    That's downright silly theology. For Jesus said:

    Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

    No one would include yourself, 1Way.
    Last edited by Freak; April 19th, 2004 at 05:39 PM.
    Jesus Loves You

  14. #73
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,875
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,379 Times in 4,792 Posts

    Mentioned
    81 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147779
    Originally posted by 1Way
    Freak and Jerry - You openly pervert in order to argue your point.
    1Way,

    It is Jeremy who is doing the "perverting"!
    Jeremy stipulated faith works, as contrasted against works alone.
    Yes,Jeremy makes up a "stipulation" that has no basis in fact or in the Scriptures in order to "pervert" the words of Paul.

    Paul's words could not be any plainer:

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident"
    (Gal.3:10,11).

    The reason why no man is justiified before God by works is because no man is able to "do all things which are written in the law!

    No man,in faith or in unbelief,is able to meet the standards of the law.Once a man (either in faith or in unbelief) breaks one of the Ten Commandments then they are "guilty of all"(James 2:10).

    Now let me ask you a question,1Way.How in the world is being "guilty of all" the law ever going to be sufficient to make anyone righteous before God by "works"?

    Besides,when Paul is speaking on this subject in Romans he makes it plain that "works" are excluded!

    He specifically uses David,a man who lived under the law,as an example of a man who is "justified before God" apart from works--to him that worketh not,but believeth"(Ro.4:5,6).

    You can either believe Paul's words or you can believe that being guilty of all the law can somehow justify a man before God.

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; April 19th, 2004 at 05:45 PM.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  16. #74
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,206
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    210
    Jerry, so you do not deny perverting what Jeremy said, at least you are that much upright. You misunderstand what he is saying, you have shown no accurate representation of what you are supposedly arguing against. Now if you would ever start showing a reasonable understanding of what we believe, then you might get somewhere.

    You said
    Now let me ask you a question,1Way.How in the world is being "guilty of all" the law ever going to be sufficient to make anyone righteous before God by "works"?
    This is in no way congruent with Jeremy’s position, but it is totally congruent with your misunderstanding of what we believe. Works never save anyone, that is a hard cold written in stone fact. So your reasoning betrays your misunderstanding. Just like there is a difference between

    the gift of salvation,

    and God’s requirements for receiving that gift,

    there is a difference between

    works for salvation

    and works as a requirement of faith to receive the gift of salvation.

    God, not you, not me, not Jeremy, God required the works added with faith to be saved prior to the dispensation of Grace. That is in no way shape or form anything but God’s requirement of obedience to His gospel requirement for salvation and God never counts this obedience of faith as meritorious for salvation, it was His faith/belief requirement, it is counted as obedient faith, not a work concerning salvation.

    You said
    He specifically uses David,a man who lived under the law,as an example of a man who is "justified before God" apart from works--to him that worketh not,but believeth"(Ro.4:5,6).
    Wow Jerry, you really twisted that up. Here is what the text says.
    Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

    9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
    God used David in this example not as a personal object of the lesson like you inferred, but as the vehicle to proclaim His word about not imputing sin, that is forgiveness and salvation, and forgiveness and salvation was available before the dispensation of Grace, so that is not at issue here. And of course God has the right to personally forgive someone on a one on one basis, again, that is not part of the disagreement.

    Any man, not just specifically David, any man is blessed whom the Lord does not impute sin. But God did not stop there, He went on to consistently show the differences that matter between the two different groups of believers. By voiding the meaning and authority of all of God’s commandments for those who lived under them, you render those two different groups virtually the same. Suggestion, stop trying to shove your theology into the scriptures, the meaningful corrective authority should go the other way around.

    As to all the rest, we agree with what Paul teaches. Also, the scope of being guilty of the entire law if you break one is not restricted to just the 10 commandments, it is for all of God’s (dispensationally current) commandments commonly referred to from the dispensation of the law. But I would like to imagine that you did not mean to imply otherwise.

    In the OT, during the dispensation of law, the gospel unto “so that you shall live” = salvation, required a faith in God that also required keeping the law, you could not be in good standing with God and disobey His commandments, remember, they were never called Gods suggestions, or 10 steps to self improvement.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  17. #75
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,875
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,379 Times in 4,792 Posts

    Mentioned
    81 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147779
    1Way,

    I am almost ashamed to call myself a dispensationalist because I do not want anyone to think that I subscribe to the beliefs put forward by you and those at the Derby School of Theology.To show you what I mean,let us examine your ideas.First you say that "works never save anyone":
    Originally posted by 1Way
    Works never save anyone, that is a hard cold written in stone fact.
    Then you turn around and say that works were "required" for salvation at one time:
    God required the works added with faith to be saved prior to the dispensation of Grace.
    So we can see that you can throw your reason to the wind and say that "works" never saved anyone but at the same time you teach that those living in the OT times could not be saved without "works"!

    Jeremy debated the question of whether or not "works were required for salvation" in regard to the OT saints,and he argued that works of the law were indeed required for salvation.

    But at the same time he throws his reason to the wind and argues that works save no one!!!

    We are to use our "reason" when it comes to understanding the Scriptures:

    "And Paul,as his manner was,went into them,and three sabbaths days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).

    Your theology is based on an abnegation of reason!

    You would have us believe that "works" were required for salvation but at the same time those "works" saved no one.This is a perfect example of the words of Paul when he speaks of people like you:

    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but,after their own lusts,shall they heap to themselves teachers,having itching ears;and they shall turn away their ears from the truth,and shall be turned into fables"(2Tim.4:3,4).

    You and the Derby School of Theology have turned your ears from the truth that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.And in order to perpetuate your fables you expect sane men to belief you when you say that "works" were required for salvation but at the same time these "works" saved no one!!

    You should take the words of Sir Robert Anderson to heart when he says that "it is a principle of universal application,and it explains the failure of many a Christian life.For if a Christian refuses new light by which God would lead him on,he is in danger of losing even the light he already enjoys"(Anderson,"The Entail of the Covenant",p.12).

    In His grace,--Jerry

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us