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Thread: Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VIII

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    TOPIC IS IMPORTANT because popular Christianity has consistantly misinterpreted the OT and the NT. Because St Paul wasn't as smart as everyone thinks he is.

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    Meanwhile, billwald throws most of the New Testament in the garbage, and calls Luke and Peter liars for endorsing Paul's ministry.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Turbo

    Meanwhile, billwald throws most of the New Testament in the garbage,
    As Turbo does with the words of the Lord Jesus.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Freak

    As Turbo does with the words of the Lord Jesus.
    No I don't.






    What's strange is... I seem to remember paraphrasing Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17 last summer, and in response you started a thread declaring that I teach "borderline heresy."

    • "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, "I repent,' you shall forgive him." Luke 17:3-4

      "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Turbo

    No I don't.
    Do you believe Jesus when He states:


    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

    Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

    I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

    I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?


    If those under the Law believed in what Jesus declared would they attain eternal life apart from any kind of works?

    What's strange is... I seem to remember paraphrasing Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17 last summer, and in response you started a thread declaring that I teach "borderline heresy."
    Your teaching is borderline heresy but Jesus embodies the very truth that you miliate against.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak

    Do you believe Jesus when He states:


    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

    Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

    I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

    I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
    Of course!

    If those under the Law believed in what Jesus declared would they attain eternal life apart from any kind of works?
    You said it yourself... they were "under the Law." One of the things "Jesus declared" was that they were to keep the commandments.

    • "If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

      "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21

      "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10


    Your teaching is borderline heresy but Jesus embodies the very truth that you miliate against.
    I teach exactly what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17. You, on the other hand, teach that we should forgive everyone regardless of whether they repent.

    If you see a discrepancy between what I teach and what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17, please explain that discrepancy.

    (I predict that you cannot, but that you will quote a different verse out of context which you believe somehow "trumps" Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17.)

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Turbo

    Of course!
    Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

    This is true, Turbo, for all people, regardless of their position in relation to the Law. If those under the Law believed in Christ received "eternal life." It wasn't due to works but rather belief.

    You said it yourself... they were "under the Law." One of the things "Jesus declared" was that they were to keep the commandments.

    • "If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15
    • Keeping commandments brought eternal life, Turbo? Did it bring adoption into the family of God?

      Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
      Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.


      Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

      "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21
      What was His commandments, Turbo? To love Him. This is the essence of salvation---to take upon His life. This wasn't a work. It was a trust matter---exchanging your life for His.

      Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

      "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10
    What did Jesus tell those under the Law...

    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

    You, on the other hand, teach that we should forgive everyone regardless of whether they repent.
    Yes, we should forgive those who wrong us. We ought not to harbor anger, unforgiveness towards others....this in light of what Scripture teaches...

    And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.

    This passage doesn't teach we ought to wait until someone comes to us to forgive but that we should forgive regardless if they come to us in repentance.

    Moving on...

    Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

    Clearly, our life is ought to be about forgiving one another regardless if one repents.

    Then Jesus taught His Followers to forgive freely:

    Give us each day our daily bread.
    Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
    And lead us not into temptation.' "

    (I predict that you cannot, but that you will quote a different verse out of context which you believe somehow "trumps" Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17.)
    That's what the Mormons tell me when they visit, "Jay, you can't trump our verses without of course quoting different verses out of context." Those is error usually resort to these kinds of arguments to rid themselves the responsibility of dealing with the clarity of God's Word.
    Jesus Loves You

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    This Battle Royale thing is lame when people don't respond to stuff. What's the point? Maybe there should be a rule for that or something. Jeremy's entire positive case for a faith-works salvation was made with the book of James, and Jerry says, count it, ZERO words about that. How's Jeremy supposed to respond and keep this going?
    "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

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    Originally posted by doogieduff

    Jeremy's entire positive case for a faith-works salvation was made with the book of James, and Jerry says, count it, ZERO words about that. How's Jeremy supposed to respond and keep this going?
    Jerry is doing an most excellent job.

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    Maybe the other person realizes they don't have a case.

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    works

    FIRST DEFINE WORKS.

    YOU SHOULD DEFINE WORKS.

    IS IT OLD TESTAMENT WORKS

    OR NEW TESTAMENT WORKS

    OR WORKS IN GENERAL ????????????????????????



    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

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    Doogieduff – I agree and I noticed the same thing. But don't forget that although Jeremy rested a more specific and in depth case from James, he also used numerous other scriptures in a well balanced fashion, including teachings from Noah, Moses, Abram/Abraham, Jesus, John, Paul, etc.

    responsiveness
    I would not worry about trying to make Jerry be more responsive, if an opponent becomes unresponsive, that non-verbal message usually spells out aversion and sometimes implies an unwillingness or inability to deal with the counterpoints and challenges presented. In short, it typically is the closest thing to an admission of defeat without it actually being said. And this is to be expected if your views are wrong in the first place. So perhaps this is simply an early indicator of things to come and about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

    a very long post
    Also, to be fair, Jeremy’s first post was pretty extensive, so we owe Jerry some slack to respond to it all. But on that note, it seems to me that Jerry is on the defensive and Jeremy has handled Jerry’s points quite well.

    I hope that Jerry will become more responsive. To be sure, if he doesn’t, it will be good for more observations.

    Jerry in a hurry
    BTW, did you notice how quickly Jerry responded? I think that this is only a 5 round battle, and Jerry responded to Jeremy’s huge post within just 3 hours(!!!) even though he had two days to make a full and “sufficient” response. Concerning Jerry’s number of posts, this now comprises almost half of the entire debate! He only have three more posts to make, two more main debate posts and one final summery post.

    Maybe Jerry is just too impatient? Maybe he’s just holding the wrong position. If he does not respond more directly, that will likely prove damaging to his position seeing how everyone will be able to look back and see how evasive he was. Only time will tell if he will improve.

    practicality concerns from the nay sayers
    BTW, I find it funny that folks don’t have an appreciation for how important this issue is. It helps us to understand several different and crucial things.
    1. The nature of our salvation, is it conditional or eternally secure, is OSAS true or not (Once Saved Always Saved)
    2. The nature of our Savior, in what ways did God change things and may again change things after this dispensation is over
    3. The clarity between law verses grace, they are not synonyms as many Christians effectively treat them
    4. The problem of legalism and false or dead works, this problem literally destroys the vitality of so many believers and helps to keep unbelievers from entering into salvation
    All of which in my book, are very important and foundational issues that unfortunately the Christian church is anything but unified over.

    Two different styles at work
    Jerry tends to skip around a lot, while he covers a lot of ground, he doesn’t always land each point very securely. Jeremy is more methodical and presents his case solidly before moving on.
    Last edited by 1Way; March 28th, 2004 at 12:33 AM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    Smile

    NoHell – Being evasive is classic for those in error (and all the way down to outright losers). Evasion is not for those who are willing and able to give a reasonable bible based apologetic for their faith. Christian unity of faith and God instructed accountability towards a bible conforming faith would have it no other way. But I would say that it’s too early to suggest that Jerry is being clearly evasive, he’s just not showing a good start, I hope things improve.

    Hundreds may benefit from reading these debates
    This is not a duel lecture series, it is not fine that Jerry is unresponsive. An otherwise objective third party observer (which I’m sure may be many over the following years) should be able to end up having a much better idea about which side is the truth after reviewing the entire debate. Many people do not have a clear idea which side is right and which is not, and if Jerry remains unresponsive to Jeremy’s well demonstrated scriptural points, then obviously he is doing a disservice for the sake of his side of the debate. But it may simply become evident that Jerry is in the wrong and that was why he became evasive, so this non-communication issue may prove useful in an objective sense.

    The truth will prevail
    If you right and you know it, lay your cards down for all to see. If your not right, then it’s customary to just dance around issues and pound the pulpit or repeat your claims as though that somehow establishes them. Aversion is defiantly not a good sign.

    example of evasion
    It’s like what happens if you walk into say a Sunday school class and you say hello to someone and then ask them some specific question like what time the class gets out, or if there is a scheduled meeting during the following week, but instead of being responsive, the other person simply ignores you. That sort of behavior is rude and not helpful. It takes personal integrity and standing firmly grounded on the truth in order to objectively refute your opposition. It takes no truth to be evasive.

    On the other hand, so far as I can tell, Jeremy is doing a great job of dealing with what Jerry has offered.
    Last edited by 1Way; March 28th, 2004 at 12:35 AM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    Jeremy is doing a great job, though I would dissagree with him.

    1 thing that I do want to know, how the heck did he get greek characters to show up right on this forum?

    Grace and Peace
    Grace and Peace

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    Acts 9_12 is simply doing a horrific job in dealing with the Scriptures that Jerry has presented. When asked about John 3 he turns to John 8. Absurd.
    Jesus Loves You

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