toldailytopic: Liberal vs. Conservative. Where and why do you stand?

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The Horn

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Patrick Johnston is NOT a conservative.He is an appallingly narrow-minded,intolerant,arrogant,self-righteous, reactionary neanderthal barbarian. His mind is in the middle ages,not the the 21st century.
The kind of America he wants would be a theocratic police state little better than those of Iran and Saudi Arabia. Any one who claims that George W. Bush is too liberal is an inbecile.
Johnston is an anti-choice fanantic, a rabid homophobe and religious fanatic. His anti-choice rhetoric does not disguise the fact that he does not give a &*%$# about children after they are born,like all such hypocritical anti-choice fanatics. And any one who supports the lunatic
Alan Keyes is not to be trusted.
 

Skavau

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Again you assume.
You offer vague and ridiculous responses that really mean nothing, especially nothing concrete.

When have I done this?

You need to learn to follow the truth, rather than your own scarecrows.
What? I'm sorry, so you don't declare that homosexuality, adultery, fornication (etc) should be forbidden by law?
 

The Barbarian

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Patrick Johnston is NOT a conservative.He is an appallingly narrow-minded,intolerant,arrogant,self-righteous, reactionary neanderthal barbarian.

I beg your pardon? :madmad:

What's that about? A barbarian pillage your cubicle or something?
 

Lighthouse

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1) Try "whom" when not writing about the subject of the sentence (objective case).

2) You also need a preposition with "listen". "To" might work.

3) Don't end sentences with prepositions.

4) You also need to tone down your puerile attitude. Your readers are losing confidence in your intellectual abilities.

Edit: 5) "Reason", in the way you used it, needs an indefinite article, such as "a".
I was running on less than two hours sleep and you still understood me. So I don't care.

Do you mean to tell me that you think Christian conservatives who supported the G.W. Bush administration weren't hoodwinked all throughout his administration?
Did I say that?

Hint: No!

You offer vague and ridiculous responses that really mean nothing, especially nothing concrete.
Then why do you make such specific assumptions?

What? I'm sorry, so you don't declare that homosexuality, adultery, fornication (etc) should be forbidden by law?
See, you are a moron. You assume that my belief these things should be illegal is in opposition to my firm belief that people who commit such acts should find Christ and be set free.
 

Skavau

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Lighthouse said:
Then why do you make such specific assumptions?
I don't. Most of me interacting with you has been a request for clarification, justification, or more information.

See, you are a moron. You assume that my belief these things should be illegal is in opposition to my firm belief that people who commit such acts should find Christ and be set free.
If others may excuse this, I will say it - but the notion of telling someone that their behavioural constraints happen to be forbidden and they should therefore find 'Christ' and be "set free" has many overtones of the infamous "work shall set you free".

Nonetheless, your original position was that sexual perversions such as homosexuality, fornication, adultery and pornography should be illegal not because they were sins but entirely because you believe they went over some line of 'offense to society' (the semantics right now eludes me). You can't include your well-wishing that people who commit such acts come to christ. It has nothing to do with the fact you wish to, by law prohibit people's personal liberty.
 

Lighthouse

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If others may excuse this, I will say it - but the notion of telling someone that their behavioural constraints happen to be forbidden and they should therefore find 'Christ' and be "set free" has many overtones of the infamous "work shall set you free".
There you go assuming again. I never said that.

Nonetheless, your original position was that sexual perversions such as homosexuality, fornication, adultery and pornography should be illegal not because they were sins but entirely because you believe they went over some line of 'offense to society' (the semantics right now eludes me). You can't include your well-wishing that people who commit such acts come to christ. It has nothing to do with the fact you wish to, by law prohibit people's personal liberty.
You fail again in presupposing that there is liberty in those acts.
 

Skavau

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There you go assuming again. I never said that.

"See, you are a moron. You assume that my belief these things should be illegal is in opposition to my firm belief that people who commit such acts should find Christ and be set free. "

You believe that homosexuality, pornography, adultery, fornication should all be illegal. You state that your belief in such does not preclude you from telling those who would commit such acts ought to find Christ and be "set free" - and indeed, they don't contradict each other. But your well-wishes towards them does not excuse the fact that your political beliefs are totalitarian and anti-freedom.

You fail again in presupposing that there is liberty in those acts.
This sentence doesn't make any sense. Two homosexuals having consensual intercourse are exercising their liberty to do so. Someone viewing pornography is exercising their liberty to do so. Someone cheating on their husband/wife, or entering in an open-relationship, or two people just having consensual unmarried intercourse are all using their liberty to do so - as granted by the nation they live in.

Whatever definition of liberty you're using is certainly alien to most of us.
 

Lighthouse

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"See, you are a moron. You assume that my belief these things should be illegal is in opposition to my firm belief that people who commit such acts should find Christ and be set free. "

You believe that homosexuality, pornography, adultery, fornication should all be illegal. You state that your belief in such does not preclude you from telling those who would commit such acts ought to find Christ and be "set free" - and indeed, they don't contradict each other. But your well-wishes towards them does not excuse the fact that your political beliefs are totalitarian and anti-freedom.
If my belief is true that true freedom is only found in Jesus Christ and that practitioners of such acts are not free, but rather slaves to these acts, then my political beliefs that these acts be illegal cannot be anti-freedom.

And, again I ask, how is it totalitarian?

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Two homosexuals having consensual intercourse are exercising their liberty to do so. Someone viewing pornography is exercising their liberty to do so. Someone cheating on their husband/wife, or entering in an open-relationship, or two people just having consensual unmarried intercourse are all using their liberty to do so - as granted by the nation they live in.
Liberty is not the freedom to be a slave to immorality. There is no liberty in immorality.

Whatever definition of liberty you're using is certainly alien to most of us.
No argument there.
 

Skavau

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If my belief is true that true freedom is only found in Jesus Christ and that practitioners of such acts are not free, but rather slaves to these acts, then my political beliefs that these acts be illegal cannot be anti-freedom.
By this logic, proponents of Sharia Law that forbid apostasy from Islam are not on the side against freedom. In fact, by this logic anyone who declares their world-view as for freedom is in fact for freedom just because they declare it. Are you sure you want go down this avenue?

And, again I ask, how is it totalitarian?
Because you support the idea of the state regulation on people's personal lives. You wish to legislate people's social lives up and only to the standards of morality that you believe happen to be so. It can be described as the imposition of government morals towards its citizens private and public lives.

Liberty is not the freedom to be a slave to immorality. There is no liberty in immorality.
This is your belief and you are welcome to it and the point of liberty is that you should not be allowed nor given the capacity to hold other people down and restrict them because of your personal beliefs. In addition, you also have given no reason for anyone to believe that people who sometimes have homosexual sex, view pornography or fornicate are a 'slave' to it and neither have you bothered to give any reason whatsoever as to why any of the actions can be labelled immoral.
 

Lighthouse

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By this logic, proponents of Sharia Law that forbid apostasy from Islam are not on the side against freedom. In fact, by this logic anyone who declares their world-view as for freedom is in fact for freedom just because they declare it. Are you sure you want go down this avenue?
Once again I must point out why you are an idiot.

Freedom is only found in Christ. Anything else is slavery. Islam especially.

Because you support the idea of the state regulation on people's personal lives. You wish to legislate people's social lives up and only to the standards of morality that you believe happen to be so. It can be described as the imposition of government morals towards its citizens private and public lives.
What makes it totalitarian?

This is your belief and you are welcome to it and the point of liberty is that you should not be allowed nor given the capacity to hold other people down and restrict them because of your personal beliefs. In addition, you also have given no reason for anyone to believe that people who sometimes have homosexual sex, view pornography or fornicate are a 'slave' to it and neither have you bothered to give any reason whatsoever as to why any of the actions can be labelled immoral.
Can you prove they are not slaves to it? And have you even tried to argue that they are not immoral? Although I see you left adultery out this time in order to attempt to make your case. I that because you can clearly see that adultery is immoral?
 

Skavau

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Once again I must point out why you are an idiot.

Freedom is only found in Christ. Anything else is slavery. Islam especially.
Once again you need to notice exactly what it is you said, and why I responded as I did. You said, the following:

"If my belief is true that true freedom is only found in Jesus Christ and that practitioners of such acts are not free, but rather slaves to these acts, then my political beliefs that these acts be illegal cannot be anti-freedom."

By the same reckoning, a Muslim advertising Sharia Law could start by saying "If my belief is true that true freedom is.." he could end exactly as you did - and being neither a Christian or a Muslim, I have no reason whatsoever to distinguish your claim over his. In truth, my observation would that both happen to be theocratic nonsense.

And of a final note, thanks for clarifying in the end that you are for theocracy (a throwback to the failed states of old). You state that your opposition to sexual perversion is based on a belief that their offense and assault towards society is so much that they must be halted - and yet now seem to suggest that you would impose a definition of 'freedom' that allegedly only exists under the pretext of believing you are saved.

What makes it totalitarian?
I just explained that. Do you know what totalitarianism means?

Can you prove they are not slaves to it?
Do you understand how the burden of proof works? You have made the claim that homosexuals, pornography viewers, fornicators are somehow 'slaves' to it and yet haven't bothered to back it up. I happen to know several homosexuals, many 'fornicators' and they are certainly not slaves to anything.

And have you even tried to argue that they are not immoral?
Why would I? It isn't my claim. I see two people having homosexual intercourse as none of my business. Just as someone viewing pornography, fornicating or betraying their wife or husband as none of my business.

Although I see you left adultery out this time in order to attempt to make your case. I that because you can clearly see that adultery is immoral?
I do think adultery is immoral. I don't think it should be illegal, however.
 

Lighthouse

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And of a final note, thanks for clarifying in the end that you are for theocracy (a throwback to the failed states of old). You state that your opposition to sexual perversion is based on a belief that their offense and assault towards society is so much that they must be halted - and yet now seem to suggest that you would impose a definition of 'freedom' that allegedly only exists under the pretext of believing you are saved.
Theocracy? How about you back that up and name one single law I advocate that is religious in nature.

I never said I would impose that definition judicially or legislatively.

I just explained that. Do you know what totalitarianism means?
You did a very poor job of explaining it. Try again. Try harder.

Do you understand how the burden of proof works? You have made the claim that homosexuals, pornography viewers, fornicators are somehow 'slaves' to it and yet haven't bothered to back it up. I happen to know several homosexuals, many 'fornicators' and they are certainly not slaves to anything.
:ha:

How many of them could go 90 days without participating in any activities relating to their homosexuality and/or fornication?

Why would I? It isn't my claim. I see two people having homosexual intercourse as none of my business. Just as someone viewing pornography, fornicating or betraying their wife or husband as none of my business.
Until your wife betrays you.

Now, tell me why they are not detrimental to society as a whole.

I do think adultery is immoral. I don't think it should be illegal, however.
Why not?
 

Skavau

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Lighthouse said:
Theocracy? How about you back that up and name one single law I advocate that is religious in nature.
Your reasoning is religious. Your definition of freedom is based entirely around your religious beliefs and it is your justification as to why you are supposedly not anti-freedom.

I never said I would impose that definition judicially or legislatively.
So does that mean you would have concede that your hypothetical banning of sexual perversion is anti-freedom?

You did a very poor job of explaining it. Try again. Try harder.
Do you know what it means, or do you not? It involves the direct legislation of people's private lives by the state - which you endorse.

How many of them could go 90 days without participating in any activities relating to their homosexuality and/or fornication?
A better question could go how people could go 90 days without sexual intercourse in general without feeling slightly tense. But I given I don't directly probe them in their private lives - I can't answer that question with absolute clarity, albeit I don't suspect they'd be remotely incapable of not having sexual intercourse for three months.

Regardless, are you insisting that having sex once every three months means that you are a slave to it?

Until your wife betrays you.
Sure. Then it is my business. But it isn't your business.

Now, tell me why they are not detrimental to society as a whole.
Your claims, mate. Back them up. Adultery in some circumstance, if happening en masse can be a problem of course and result in many messy divorce cases.

Why would a couple in an open-relationship be of any relevance to you?

Because I don't follow after those who state their business is to legislate people's private lives.
 

Lighthouse

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Your reasoning is religious.
No, it isn't.

Your definition of freedom is based entirely around your religious beliefs and it is your justification as to why you are supposedly not anti-freedom.
So?

So does that mean you would have concede that your hypothetical banning of sexual perversion is anti-freedom?
All this means is that you're an idiot. do I need to continue to show you why?

Do you know what it means, or do you not? It involves the direct legislation of people's private lives by the state - which you endorse.
Is it totalitarian to outlaw murder? How about theft? Rape? Kidnapping? Child molestation? Child pornography?

A better question could go how people could go 90 days without sexual intercourse in general without feeling slightly tense. But I given I don't directly probe them in their private lives - I can't answer that question with absolute clarity, albeit I don't suspect they'd be remotely incapable of not having sexual intercourse for three months.
How about one month? Make it February, in a non leap year, so it's only 28 days [4 weeks].

Regardless, are you insisting that having sex once every three months means that you are a slave to it?
:bang:

You're a moron. Especially since you think, "any activities relating to their homosexuality and/or fornication," is limited to sexual intercourse.

Sure. Then it is my business. But it isn't your business.
It is if I'm in the business of protecting families, which the government should be.

Your claims, mate. Back them up. Adultery in some circumstance, if happening en masse can be a problem of course and result in many messy divorce cases.
Homosexuality? Fornication? Pornography?

Why would a couple in an open-relationship be of any relevance to you?
It is antithetical to civilized society wherein our rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Because I don't follow after those who state their business is to legislate people's private lives.
This is not about privacy, rather it is about when that which is done in private spills over into the public, causing detriment to society.
 

Granite

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"It is antithetical to civilized society wherein our rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

:rotfl:

I've read some whoppers here but this one's got to be one of the most unintentionally hilarious tone deaf and ironic posts I've come across in a real long time.
 

Skavau

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Lighthouse said:
No, it isn't.
Lol. You say this and then immediately, when I retort that "Your definition of freedom is based entirely around your religious beliefs and it is your justification as to why you are supposedly not anti-freedom. "

You say:


Talk about doublespeak.

All this means is that you're an idiot. do I need to continue to show you why?
No, you said you wouldn't use your definition of freedom either judicially or legislatively. Does that mean you would have to concede to other definitions of freedom when making your case?

Is it totalitarian to outlaw murder? How about theft? Rape? Kidnapping? Child molestation? Child pornography?
Uh, no. This illustrates my query that you don't understand totalitarianism at all. Totalitarianism as I said involves the direct legislation of people's private lives by the state. Murder, theft, rape, kidnapping, child molestation, child pornography are not private actions - they directly impact on the lives of others.

How about one month? Make it February, in a non leap year, so it's only 28 days [4 weeks].
I suspect they could all manage to not have sexual intercourse for a month. The point of shortening the time limit is?

You're a moron. Especially since you think, "any activities relating to their homosexuality and/or fornication," is limited to sexual intercourse.
Homosexuality simply describes the attraction to your own gender and fornication simply means consensual sexual intercourse between two consenting adults. What else could fornication describe, precisely?

It is if I'm in the business of protecting families, which the government should be.
And there we go - your discreet nod towards totalitarianism again. The system should help clear up dysfunctional families that fall apart if their children are in danger of reaping the consequences, but I certainly won't hear any talk of execution or direct control over their sex lives.

Homosexuality? Fornication? Pornography?
Nope. They are not detrimental in and of themselves to society.

It is antithetical to civilized society wherein our rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Not for the couple in the open relationship. Their pursuit of happiness may partly involve their open relationship. Their liberty involves their freedom of that relationship. The notion of 'pursuit of happiness' describes everyone's happiness, Lighthouse - not just yours.

This is not about privacy, rather it is about when that which is done in private spills over into the public, causing detriment to society.
And I await you to bother backing any of your claims up that they do.
 

Lighthouse

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Lol. You say this and then immediately, when I retort that "Your definition of freedom is based entirely around your religious beliefs and it is your justification as to why you are supposedly not anti-freedom. "

You say:

Talk about doublespeak.
Why do I have to keep explaining to you why you're an idiot?

My definition of freedom stems from my relationship with the Creator of the universe. It does not logically follow that my reasoning for wanting sexual deviants to be punished as criminals is based upon that.

No, you said you wouldn't use your definition of freedom either judicially or legislatively. Does that mean you would have to concede to other definitions of freedom when making your case?
There are no other definitions of freedom.

Uh, no. This illustrates my query that you don't understand totalitarianism at all. Totalitarianism as I said involves the direct legislation of people's private lives by the state. Murder, theft, rape, kidnapping, child molestation, child pornography are not private actions - they directly impact on the lives of others.
And I have repeatedly told you, and your ilk, that this isn't about private practices. It is about the public impact of said practices when they do not stay private, which they never do.

I suspect they could all manage to not have sexual intercourse for a month. The point of shortening the time limit is?
:bang:

It is not solely about sexual intercourse.

And the shortening of the time limit is to make the case that they are salves to their immorality.

Homosexuality simply describes the attraction to your own gender and fornication simply means consensual sexual intercourse between two consenting adults. What else could fornication describe, precisely?
Context, moron.

I did not solely mention fornication. This is about fornication, homosexuality and pornography. I recognize I failed to mention the latter in the original question, so I would like to add it now.

And homosexual acts are the subject in that regard, not same sex attraction.

Could these people go a month without viewing anything pornographic, or using anything that may not be defined as pornography for the same purpose as pornography? Could they go just as long, at the same time, without sexual intercourse? Could they also go without any romantic or erotic activity? Etc.

And there we go - your discreet nod towards totalitarianism again. The system should help clear up dysfunctional families that fall apart if their children are in danger of reaping the consequences, but I certainly won't hear any talk of execution or direct control over their sex lives.
Your fingers must be covered in ear wax.

Nope. They are not detrimental in and of themselves to society.
How are they not?

Not for the couple in the open relationship. Their pursuit of happiness may partly involve their open relationship. Their liberty involves their freedom of that relationship. The notion of 'pursuit of happiness' describes everyone's happiness, Lighthouse - not just yours.
You are a fool if you believe them to be happy. If they were happy they would be happy with each other.

And I await you to bother backing any of your claims up that they do.
You've already demonstrated the truth about adultery in this regard. Pornography has the same effect, for the same reasons, in marriages anyway. And is otherwise detrimental even to those who are in no relationship. Often causing problems in even obtaining a relationship, even causing one to not even seek a real relationship.

As for homosexuality is it more likely to lead to life [i.e.childbirth] or death?

And fornication diminishes the ultimate expression of love that is between a husband and wife.
 
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