For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

Choleric,

The previous post by Randy on being "born of the Spirit" is a perfect example of where Neo-MAD differs from the original teaching of Mid Acts dispensationalism. Let me show you the errors of Randy and those in the Neo-MAD camp. Randy certainly implies that being born again has nothing to do with beimng saved, writing that:

What does "born again" mean? Because the phrase has so permeated Christendom, then it has a connotation that has become the definition and a synonym to the word "saved" or something like that.

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The Lord Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit (Jn.3:5). We also know that only those who are now saved have been translated into the kingdom (Col.1:13). So if words have any meaning it is absolutely necessary for the sinner to be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God so therefore being born again is necessary for salvation.

Randy says:

The first time the phrase shows up in scripture is John 3:3. And it gets defined in the context as "born of the Spirit" (vs. 5, 6, 8). And since we in the Body of Christ have received the Spirit, people want to read back into the text that that's referring to when we receive the Spirit and are saved.

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Anyone who is familiar with the meaning of the Greek word translated "regeneration" knows that that word literally means born again. In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation.

This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth—"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

I wonder if Randy would argue that a regeneration of the Spirt is not necessary for salvation.

Randy also says:

Again, it's a figure of speech that the context has to define. Peter defines it pretty straightforward earlier in the chapter when he writes:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... I Peter 1:3

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This is not referring to the new birth but instead to the glorious body the Christian will put on at the rapture, and that is the same "blessed hope" referred to here by Paul:

"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

This refers to the Christian's inheritance:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

This is a body that is reserved in heaven and is described as being incorruptible. This matches up perfectly with the description of the body which Christians will put on at the rapture:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:3-5).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).

Let us also look at the following verse from the pen of John:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn.3:2).

These Christians were taught that when the Lord Jesus appears then those still living "shall be like Him," meaning that they would also have glorious bodies like His glorious body. The Scriptures will be searched in vain for any teaching that the saints who remain alive at the Lord Jesus' coming to set up His kingdom will be changed at His return. This is obviously referring to what will happen at the rapture, and only those in the Body of Christ will be caught up then. That means that those who received the Jewish epistles are members of the Body of Christ--despite the teaching of those within the Neo-MAD community.

In His grace,
Jerry

Nick M said:

This makes no sense whatsoever.

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What makes no sense? Are you not aware that the original teaching of Mid Acts dispensationalism differs substantially from the teaching of Neo-Mid Acts dispensationalism?

in His grace,
Jerry

Jerry said:

Randy certainly implies that being born again has nothing to do with beimng saved

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Nope. Not implying that at all. In fact, in John 3, it has everything to do with being saved. But in the context, it's all about Israel in THEIR regeneration. Their salvation.

If you're going to tell others that my post is in error (which is fine), then perhaps a better approach is to show how, specifically, the very specific points I brought up are in error. In other words, show why my "3 criteria of John 3" are wrong. Show why I'm wrong in my view of how "begotten again" applies to "not my people"/"now my people". Etc.. Instead, you pretty much just offered an alternative explanation.

If you're going to say "he's in error", it seems the next logical step is to show exactly why. All you effectively said, though, was "he's in error, and this is what I believe".

chickenman said:

Nope. Not implying that at all. In fact, in John 3, it has everything to do with being saved. But in the context, it's all about Israel in THEIR regeneration. Their salvation.

If you're going to tell others that my post is in error (which is fine), then perhaps a better approach is to show how, specifically, the very specific points I brought up are in error.

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OK, Randy. I will begin with your specific statements about the regeneration of Israel. The Scriptures do speak of the regeneration of the nation of Israel at the 37th chapter of the book of Ezekiel. There the reference is to the "whole house of Israel" (Ez.37:11) being regenerated and not to individuals. The regeneration of the whole house of Israel remains in the future but Paul speaks of the "born again" experience of the individual Jew as haviing already happened--"being born again...by the word of God " (1 Pet.1:23). The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the "present" tense and therefore is not in regard to something that remains in the future.

To Nicodemus the Lord first began to speak about an "individual's" new birth and then He next begins to speak of the nation of Israel's regeneration. The Lord shifts from using the second person "singular" pronoun "you" to the second person "plural":

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8; NIV).[ A footnote in the NIV at verse seven says, "The Greek is plural."]

So we can understand that here He employed a "type" which illustrates the regeneration of the nation of Israel in order to picture the regeneration of the individual believer. The individual believer is born of the Spirit when he believes the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

This verse teaches that the Jews who received Peter's epistles were "born again" and saved when the believed the gospel. Their salvation did not depend on doing works of any kind. They were saved by faith and faith alone--despite the teaching of Neo-MAD to the contrary.

If you're going to tell others that my post is in error (which is fine), then perhaps a better approach is to show how, specifically, the very specific points I brought up are in error.

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You seem to think that the words of the Lord Jesus to Nicodemus are ONLY about the nation of Israel:

But in the context, it's all about Israel in THEIR regeneration. Their salvation.

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You leave out the words found in the context where the Lord Jesus said:

"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3,5).

In His grace,
Jerry

I'd like to make a couple of points about "born again" in John 3.

First,

John 3
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Nicodemus speaks for "we"

Who's we?


10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?



Second, the things Jesus says to Nicodemus (thee) are about a group of people
(ye)

7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



Third, not only is Jesus speaking about entering the kingdom of God, but also "seeing" the kingdom of God.

Go back to John 1

John 1
50: Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

This is seeing the kingdom of God. I dare say that no one today who claims to be "born again" has seen this.

SaulToPaul said:

Second, the things Jesus says to Nicodemus (thee) are about a group of people
(ye)

7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

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Yes, and he also says things concerning individuals":

"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3,5).

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry Shugart said:

Yes, and he also says things concerning individuals":

"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3,5).

In His grace,
Jerry

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Yes, a nation is made up of individuals.

Isaiah 66
7: Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8: Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

SaulToPaul said:

Yes, a nation is made up of individuals.

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Yes, but the Lord was speaking of the regeneration of both "individuals" and the "nation" of Israel. Not just one.

There will be many Gentiles who will enter the kingdom and they will be regenerated independently from the nation to which they originally belonged (Zech.14:16).

Also, the regeneration of an individual is heavenly (born of God) while the regeneration of the nation of Israel will be earthly. Hence the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to Nicodemus:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (Jn.3:12).

In His grace,
Jerry

There are earthly covenants relating to the land and national Israel. Salvation for Israel involves a national issue and an individual issue. The restoration of Israel in the future (Rom. 9-11) should not be confused with individual redemption, Jew/Gentile one in Christ (Rom. 4-5).

Jerry, who do you think will be in heaven? I think everyone except the living Trib saints have a heavenly hope (and millennial saints from procreation). Do you think OT saints (Abraham, David, etc.) will have glorified bodies with the Body of Christ or will they be raised to live on paradise earth forever while the Church rules/reigns in a different form?

(I think OT saints will be raised with Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib, while the Church will be raptured before the Trib).

Jerry Shugart said:

OK, Randy. I will begin with your specific statements about the regeneration of Israel. The Scriptures do speak of the regeneration of the nation of Israel at the 37th chapter of the book of Ezekiel. There the reference is to the "whole house of Israel" (Ez.37:11) being regenerated and not to individuals. The regeneration of the whole house of Israel remains in the future but Paul speaks of the "born again" experience of the individual Jew as haviing already happened--"being born again...by the word of God " (1 Pet.1:23). The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the "present" tense and therefore is not in regard to something that remains in the future.

To Nicodemus the Lord first began to speak about an "individual's" new birth and then He next begins to speak of the nation of Israel's regeneration. The Lord shifts from using the second person "singular" pronoun "you" to the second person "plural":

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8; NIV).[ A footnote in the NIV at verse seven says, "The Greek is plural."]

So we can understand that here He employed a "type" which illustrates the regeneration of the nation of Israel in order to picture the regeneration of the individual believer. The individual believer is born of the Spirit when he believes the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

This verse teaches that the Jews who received Peter's epistles were "born again" and saved when the believed the gospel. Their salvation did not depend on doing works of any kind. They were saved by faith and faith alone--despite the teaching of Neo-MAD to the contrary.

You seem to think that the words of the Lord Jesus to Nicodemus are ONLY about the nation of Israel:

You leave out the words found in the context where the Lord Jesus said:

"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3,5).

In His grace,
Jerry

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The Word says that those who accept the salvation through Christ will be saved, born again, only through the Word.

Jerry,

Do you know of any man, in the four gospels, who came "without observation" and who you "can't tell from whence he cometh, or whither he goest"?

Was Jesus Christ a man (rhetorical)? Is he in the kingdom of God?

Thanks

SaulToPaul said:

Jerry,

Do you know of any man, in the four gospels, who came "without observation" and who you "can't tell from whence he cometh, or whither he goest"?

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The reference in regard to not knowing from where it cometh is to the "wind" and not to a man:

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:8;NIV).

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (NASB).

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry Shugart said:

The reference in regard to not knowing from where it cometh is to the "wind" and not to a man:

In His grace,
Jerry

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John 3
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

godrulz said:

There are earthly covenants relating to the land and national Israel. Salvation for Israel involves a national issue and an individual issue. The restoration of Israel in the future (Rom. 9-11) should not be confused with individual redemption, Jew/Gentile one in Christ (Rom. 4-5).

Jerry, who do you think will be in heaven? I think everyone except the living Trib saints have a heavenly hope (and millennial saints from procreation). Do you think OT saints (Abraham, David, etc.) will have glorified bodies with the Body of Christ or will they be raised to live on paradise earth forever while the Church rules/reigns in a different form?

(I think OT saints will be raised with Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib, while the Church will be raptured before the Trib).

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I believe that the ultimate ending place for all believers is the eternal state, heaven.

The Scriptures do reveal that at some point in time the present earth and heavens will be destroyed: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).

The Apostle John was given a vision where he was given a glimpse of the eternal state: "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:1,3).

This will be the dwelling place of the saved in the eternal state. Will this dwelling place be on the earth or in heaven? There seems little doubt that all of the saved will indeed spend eternity in heaven. Paul reveals that the citizenship of the Christian is a heavenly one: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil.3:20; NIV).

Paul also says that the Christian's "home" is with the Lord in heaven: "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8; NIV).

Since the Christian's citizenship is in heaven it is inconceivable that the Christian will spend eternity in any other place than heaven, the abode of God. The author of the book of Hebrews speaks the faith of Noah, Abraham and Sarah and then says:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Heb.11:13-16).

While on the earth the saints spoken of here are said to be "strangers and pilgrims." The Greek word translated "stranger" means "a foreigner" and the Greek word translated "pilgrim" means: "in the NT metaph. in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Surely the saints of all ages will spend eternity in the place of their citizenship or else we must believe that throughout eternity all of God's saints will be strangers and pilgrims and away from their place of citizenship.

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry,

I understand the hesitation to admit that Jesus Christ was "born again". The term has become a cliche which says that "only sinners need to be born again". But, the fact is that Jesus Christ was a man and he's obviously in the kingdom of God. Born again, in John 3, is about resurrection.

In his resurrection body, Jesus Christ was the like the wind. You could not tell from where he came or where he was going. He appeared and disappeared.

He was born of water (womb), and born of Spirit (tomb).

SaulToPaul said:

John 3
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

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Here is another translation:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:8; YNG).

The reference is to the birth of the Spirit here:

"Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live" (Ez.37:9; KJV).

Here is another translation:

"And He saith unto me: `Prophesy unto the Spirit, prophesy, son of man, and thou hast said unto the Spirit: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: From the four winds come in, O Spirit, and breathe on these slain, and they do live" (YNG).

In His grace,
Jerry

SaulToPaul said:

Born again, in John 3, is about resurrection.

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What about at 1 Peter 1:23? The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the "present" tense. So unless you want to argue that those who received this epistle were already resurrected then you must admit that they were already born again. And notice that they are born again by the gospel. NO WORKS are required!!!

In his resurrection body, Jesus Christ was the like the wind. You could not tell from where he came or where he was going. He appeared and disappeared.

He was born of water (womb), and born of Spirit (tomb).

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The Lord Jesus was not speaking of two different births. Sir Robert Anderson said:

"Now, first it is essential to notice that this is not a twofold birth (of water, and of the Spirit), but emphatically one - a birth of water-and-Spirit, in contrast with the birth which is of flesh. This is not obvious in a translation; but in the original it is unmistakable. And the context emphasises it, for in the very next sentence, and again in verse 8, the water is omitted altogether, and the new man is spoken of merely as 'born of the Spirit.' It follows, therefore, that whatever the water signifies it must be implied in the words "born of the Spirit," and every one who has been "born anew" has been "born of water and the Spirit" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church?, [London: Pickering and Inglis, Second Edition], p.222).

Robert V. McCabe agrees, writing that "in v. 5 the preposition 'ek' governs two nouns, 'hydor' and 'pneuma,' that are coordinated by 'kai.' This indicates that Jesus regards 'hydor kai pneuma' as a conceptual unity. If 'hydor kai pneuma' is a conceptual unity, this phrase may be taken either as a 'water-spirit' source or a 'water-and-Spirit' source of birth. A good case can be presented for either view in the context of John 3:1–8. With either view, there is one birth that is characterized either as 'water-spirit,' or 'water-and-Spirit.' Neither of these understandings suggest that there are two births, physical and spiritual" [emphasis added] (McCabe, "The Meaning of 'Born of Water and the Spirit' in John 3:5," Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal [Fall1999], p.85-107).

In His grace,
Jerry

Has this thread now become a debate thread?

SaulToPaul said:

John 3
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

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There is a play on words with 'pneuma' which can mean wind or spirit/Spirit. The illustration of the wind relates to the work of the Spirit, not to resurrected men (or whatever you are thinking). Once again, your interpretation is an odd proof texting to retain a preconceived view instead of exegesis that most understand as regeneration/conversion, not resurrection (in 30 years, you are the first one I know to ever equate regeneration/resurrection?!).

To say Jesus was 'born again' is rank heresy. Regeneration only relates to sinners; resurrection does apply to Jesus and sinners/saints.

Oops. I just realized which thread this is, honest. I am a sincere inquisitor, so thx for the slack to give me one post here.

Jerry S: I Peter 1:23 'for you have been born again' = anagegennemenoi= perfect passive participle nominative plural masculine....

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

The perfect tense indicates that the action has been completed, but the results continue on. Once again, the inspired grammar does not support MAD and its proof texting.

godrulz said:

There is a play on words with 'pneuma' which can mean wind or spirit/Spirit. The illustration of the wind relates to the work of the Spirit, not to resurrected men (or whatever you are thinking). Once again, your interpretation is an odd proof texting to retain a preconceived view instead of exegesis that most understand as regeneration/conversion, not resurrection (in 30 years, you are the first one I know to ever equate regeneration/resurrection?!).

To say Jesus was 'born again' is rank heresy. Regeneration only relates to sinners; resurrection does apply to Jesus and sinners/saints.

Oops. I just realized which thread this is, honest. I am a sincere inquisitor, so thx for the slack to give me one post here.

Jerry S: I Peter 1:23 'for you have been born again' = anagegennemenoi= perfect passive participle nominative plural masculine....

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

The perfect tense indicates that the action has been completed, but the results continue on. Once again, the inspired grammar does not support MAD and its proof texting.

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You didn't just notice halfway through your post, godrulz. Be honest. And respectful.