Paganism, Tribalism and the State: ligtbringer vs. Nydhogg.

Lightbringer affirms that the State is legitimate, even from a pagan and clannish cultural standpoint.

He has tacitly admitted that it is acceptable to have a law imposed on some tribes by the mandate of the others.

He has tacitly admitted that it is permissible for outsiders to legislate and impose how clan members may or may not conduct their personal affairs, or their way of dealing with each other.


Against this, I contend that lighbringer's position is profoundly un-pagan and anti-tribal. I affirm that the sovereignty of the clan can never legitimately be given away to an external authority.



Any pagans on TOL are encouraged to contribute to this discussion.

I think it looks like an interesting topic, but what does paganism necessarily have to do with state authority? Paganism is a theological label not a political one. You said that "lighbringer's position is profoundly un-pagan".

How so? Perhaps I think of pagan differently than you or even lb does. :idunno:

The tribal mindset has taught me a lot whenever I ponder cultural/sociological issues. I like to break issues down to a tribal level. For instance, when analyzing a certain law or cultural issue, I think about how it would play out in a smaller society such as a tribe. What would benefit the tribe (society) directly and what would benefit the tribe by benefiting the individual person or family within.

Just a way of keeping it simple I suppose.

Paganism is in essence tribal.
The State is anti-tribal, it's the death of individual and tribal sovereignty.

It's subjugation.



From my point of view, statism is deeply unpagan.

Nydhogg said:

Paganism is in essence tribal.

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How so? Paganism is theological not political. What's the definition you're using?

Most pagan religions are tribal religions.
They can't be practiced fully without a free and sovereign tribal society.

If outsiders can dictate personal and inter-clan thew, there can be no frith. There is no way around that.

Nydhogg said:

Most pagan religions are tribal religions.
They can't be practiced fully without a free and sovereign tribal society.

If outsiders can dictate personal and inter-clan thew, there can be no frith. There is no way around that.

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In what specific ways would/could the state interfere? Take the United States for an example.

Well, the State's continuous assaults on freedom can (and will) clash with any tribe on the territory.


About things the US Government currently does:

Let's take the War on Drugs.

Let's assume that one particular clan or tribe's way of life allows for the use of marijuana, whether ritual, medical or recreational.

While the tribe goes about their business, the State's enforcers incarcerate a priest for growing weed, or a tribesman for posessing it. They attempt to kidnap and imprison your tribesmember (casus belli). Perhaps he resists arrest, and they kill him.

That's reason enough to go to war with the State. In fact, to preserve the tribe's honor, it well might be neccessary to go to war with the State.


RKBA issues:
Let's assume that training for war, sparring, and bearing weapons play a big part on a clan or tribe's thew. ATF goons try to disarm them forcibly, they don't comply. The ATF goons shoot them.

The State has killed tribesmen. Now the tribe should go to war against the State.

Taxation:

A tribe lives on their ancestral land. Property values soar, and so do property taxes. The taxes force the tribe out of their homeland. State goons come to evict the tribe. The tribe fights back. It's war again.

Through imposed tribute and the overwhelming force so financed, the State subjugates each and every tribe on the land it claims.

Licensing:
A few trades are the primary breadwinning methods of a clan. The Government decides to regulate and license those trades, or ban them outright. Tribesmen are locked out of their sources of income. The tribe must change its ways to fit the State's whims or perish.


There's a pattern with States:
They use the threat of extermination to force the clans to submit. Through "democracy", smaller clans's ways of life are routinely suppressed in favor of bigger clans's ways of life.



At least, you've got to admit I raise some valid points.

Nydhogg said:

Lightbringer affirms that the State is legitimate, even from a pagan and clannish cultural standpoint.

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First let's define the two words;

Pagan, A country dweller, of the country. A modern addition by the Christian faith, all non–Abrahamic religions.

Clan, Families of common ancestry following the same hereditary chieftain.

He has tacitly admitted that it is acceptable to have a law imposed on some tribes by the mandate of the others.

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Wrong statement, what I stated was, in times of need the clans gathered together and made alliances between themselves, voluntarily setting their personal laws and rules aside in order to field a stronger force.

Those that did not develop alliances for strength where conquered and absorbed by the conquering nation and subjugated to the new rule of law, or they migrated from their clan territories to another country. See the history of the Roman Empire and or the British Empire, paying attention to the migration of the peoples as these Empires moved forward.

He has tacitly admitted that it is permissible for outsiders to legislate and impose how clan members may or may not conduct their personal affairs, or their way of dealing with each other.

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No sir, again a misleading statement. Any clan, living within their clan territory, is only answerable to their clan laws. The problem is, the idea of a clan has changed and expanded into states and countries, to include friends and associates believing generally in the old clan ways, requiring a change to some of the individual laws and rules of the smaller clans in order to maintain an alliance.

Against this, I contend that lighbringer's position is profoundly un-pagan and anti-tribal. I affirm that the sovereignty of the clan can never legitimately be given away to an external authority.

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The sovereignty of the clan was changed, voluntarily, upon migration into the new country, but was retained by the families in order to preserve the beliefs/ancestry of the clan while living under new laws and rules.

As far as being un-pagan or anti-tribal, that has changed with time...I am still one of the country, a country dweller, a non-Christian......My tribe is now the American tribe, while I still hold on to the old ways of my ancestors.

Any clansman that wishes to continue in the pursuit may do so, but unless they can establish their own country under their own laws they will live honorably according to the alliance, laws and rules of their new country.

A clansman's word is his bond, to his clan and to his country!

No clan is an island and those that rigidly thought they were are no longer in existence.

Nydhogg said:

Well, the State's continuous assaults on freedom can (and will) clash with any tribe on the territory.

About things the US Government currently does:

Let's take the War on Drugs.

Let's assume that one particular clan or tribe's way of life allows for the use of marijuana, whether ritual, medical or recreational.

While the tribe goes about their business, the State's enforcers incarcerate a priest for growing weed, or a tribesman for posessing it. They attempt to kidnap and imprison your tribesmember (casus belli). Perhaps he resists arrest, and they kill him.

That's reason enough to go to war with the State. In fact, to preserve the tribe's honor, it well might be neccessary to go to war with the State.

RKBA issues:
Let's assume that training for war, sparring, and bearing weapons play a big part on a clan or tribe's thew. ATF goons try to disarm them forcibly, they don't comply. The ATF goons shoot them.

The State has killed tribesmen. Now the tribe should go to war against the State.

Taxation:

A tribe lives on their ancestral land. Property values soar, and so do property taxes. The taxes force the tribe out of their homeland. State goons come to evict the tribe. The tribe fights back. It's war again.

Through imposed tribute and the overwhelming force so financed, the State subjugates each and every tribe on the land it claims.

Licensing:
A few trades are the primary breadwinning methods of a clan. The Government decides to regulate and license those trades, or ban them outright. Tribesmen are locked out of their sources of income. The tribe must change its ways to fit the State's whims or perish.

There's a pattern with States:
They use the threat of extermination to force the clans to submit. Through "democracy", smaller clans's ways of life are routinely suppressed in favor of bigger clans's ways of life.

At least, you've got to admit I raise some valid points.

Click to expand...

Valid from an individual perspective.

Those points, drugs, weapons, taxation and licensing were all controlled by the clans tribal chieftain and ruling council. The decision to legalize or outlaw any of the above was done so with the clans future in mind, what was good for the clan, not the individual. If it was deemed bad for the clan, it was outlawed and those that would not submit to this rule were cast out! Nothing has changed in respect to this rule of order.

You are attempting to justifying your personal rebellion against the man, by trying to revert the thinking of modern man, his clan, state or country.

You sir are not a clansman, for a clansman thinks of the survival for his clan first and foremost.... then his personal desires.

The government is not my chieftain. Hell, they're not even my fellow tribesmen!

The survival of "the nation" is none of my concern. As far as I'm concerned, they can go to Nástrond with the other nidlings.


They're outsiders. Tyrannical outsiders, meddling in things that are none of their business. Hostile outsiders.
The government you defend is not my tribe. In fact, it can coexist with no tribe, not without subjugating them.

The decision of whether I'm a clansman is better left to kin and comrade, not to the judgement of outsiders.


To Hel with your nation, its institutions and its laws!
Tribesmen serve no "nation".




By the way, something has changed. In the old days, you could be set wretched and seize land elsewhere. There is not such a way out anymore:

Your "nations" cover all of the Earth, like a cancer. There remains no frontier for those who wish to be free to claim. The only options that remain are submitting, or crushing an already existing nation to make new free land.

WizardofOz said:

I think it looks like an interesting topic, but what does paganism necessarily have to do with state authority? Paganism is a theological label not a political one. You said that "lighbringer's position is profoundly un-pagan".

How so? Perhaps I think of pagan differently than you or even lb does. :idunno:

The tribal mindset has taught me a lot whenever I ponder cultural/sociological issues. I like to break issues down to a tribal level. For instance, when analyzing a certain law or cultural issue, I think about how it would play out in a smaller society such as a tribe. What would benefit the tribe (society) directly and what would benefit the tribe by benefiting the individual person or family within.

Just a way of keeping it simple I suppose.

Click to expand...

:thumb:

Nydhogg said:

The government is not my chieftain. It might be yours, but it's not mine.

They are not my fellow tribesmen.

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That choice is ultimately yours.

One without a country (the representation of all the clans), a state ( multiple clans within the territory) or family (the specific clan of heredity) stands alone and will become an outcast or outlaw loosing all sense of the clan and will perish from history.

Is this what you want, in order to follow you personal desires and not align your thought for the greater good of the clan?

What happens when you do not pass on to your children, the beliefs and stories of "The Clan" of your great family?

What happens when you do not use the system established, to maintain the equality and fight for recognition or change you see as your clans rights?

Obscurity?

That is the attitude of surrender, have you surrendered or will you fight on? Physical resistance will no longer work, intellectual resistance may.

Nydhogg said:

The government is not my chieftain. Hell, they're not even my fellow tribesmen!

The survival of "the nation" is none of my concern. As far as I'm concerned, they can go to Nástrond with the other nidlings.

They're outsiders. Tyrannical outsiders, meddling in things that are none of their business. Hostile outsiders.
The government you defend is not my tribe. In fact, it can coexist with no tribe, not without subjugating them.

The decision of whether I'm a clansman is better left to kin and comrade, not to the judgement of outsiders.

To Hel with your nation, its institutions and its laws!
Tribesmen serve no "nation".

By the way, something has changed. In the old days, you could be set wretched and seize land elsewhere. There is not such a way out anymore:

Your "nations" cover all of the Earth, like a cancer. There remains no frontier for those who wish to be free to claim. The only options that remain are submitting, or crushing an already existing nation to make new free land.

Click to expand...

Then, obscurity it will be, sorry to hear that!

lightbringer said:

Physical resistance will no longer work

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We've got the likes of you to "thank".

We'll have to agree to disagree. Governments collapse, and clans routinely outlive them.
That they can fail means that they can be rolled back.

It was an interesting argument either way.

lightbringer said:

intellectual resistance might.

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Indeed. There are many things that can somewhat safely be done to subvert and weaken governments. Subversion is a good thing. If the authorities are discredited enough, the people might start resisting them en masse and by force, and that could be the authorities's end.

Nydhogg said:

We've got the likes of you to "thank".

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Actually that would be the natural progression of the clans, tribes and nations as we changed from small town (clan/family) thought to looking into the future survival of our way.

I understand you feel that physical resistance is the only way, it may be one of the many methods that can be used but it will fail in the long run, intellectual resistance on the other hand, working within the system as established, has been the vehicle of change and will continue to be in the future.

lightbringer said:

I understand you feel that physical resistance is the only way.

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Yeah. Personal scores to settle, quite a few of'em.

Even if all the State's tyrannical laws were abolished, there would remain wrongs that wouldn't be settled.
Blood demands blood or weregeld. And the State is not capable to make weregeld, for their abuses are too grave and too many.

The only thing that could possibly settle the account would be to execute or enthrall everyone who took part in the State's abuses. Oviously, I'm in no position to settle it. It's more of a long-term goal.

Nydhogg said:

Yeah. Personal scores to settle, quite a few of'em.

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That has become obvious!

You are placing your personal scores to settle above the clan's need to co-exist within a society of many clans.

If the system collapses (the representative government) there will be a struggle for the rule of the clans, no single clan will be large enough to accomplish it alone, but an alliance of many clans may, so your right back to were you don't want to be.

lightbringer said:

If the system collapses (the representative government) there will be a struggle for the rule of the clans.

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There's another option. If the system collapses (and I hope it does) each clan will rule itself. Those who attempt to rule other clans should be ruthlessly wiped out.

The Celts used to put the skulls of their vanquished foes on display, to make sure everyone understood what would happen to would-be conquerors. For many centuries, it was a sound strategy .

Cull the would-be rulers until natural selection breeds the "bossing others around" gene out, I say. .

Nydhogg is starting to worry me :noid:

WizardofOz said:

Nydhogg is starting to worry me :noid:

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Naw, he's just playing, may be the influence of a new video game.