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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

    We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

    That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit. That may seem like an outrageous claim but I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you. This is why God said it is a crime not simply a sin. The same is true of adultery for many of the same reasons.
    I do not suggest that we take the law into our own hands and start lynching people. Criminal justice is the pervue of the governing authorities and if they do not live up to their responsibilities then we will be harmed and they will answer to God for that. But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so.
    So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them. Either way, do not tolerate it. If you don't have the authority to fire them, then dislike them in such a way as they know that they are disliked. If need be quit and work somewhere else. The point being, do what you can to communicate that their behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence then allow the offense to work its ministry.
    The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law. Baring that however, we must get them as close to that as we are able even if the closest we can come is to hurt their feelings and separate ourselves from them.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Over 750 post club Duder's Avatar
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    Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit.
    Oh, yes. I see a future where government forces invade our homes and drag the children off to fag farms.

    I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you.
    I learned about the secret Let's Destroy the Family meetings that are attended by every gay person from watching Jerry Falwell. How'd you hear about this ?

    But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so. . . . So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them.
    I think this is an admirable strategy. To be effective, we are going to have to expose the lies of our opponents, such as the one who said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - you know, that guy who broke bread with publicans and sinners and who rebuked those who were offended? This public enemy must be discredited, for we must, as you say, "communicate that their (sinners) behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence . . ."

    In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them.
    Brilliant! Fire them for being fags, but hide the real reason and claim it was for another reason. Of course, that means we're going to have to discredit the one who said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness . . ."

    The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law.
    What insight! How I have longed for a return to the days of forced confession, and the sweet incense of scorched flesh as the repentant fag is sent by us to his eternal reward in heaven
    Last edited by Duder; March 24th, 2004 at 02:07 PM.
    Bush in 2004!

    Elect the president that even stupid people can understand.

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

    We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

    That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! te
    "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

    I've read the article.
    I've pointed to places in the bible where it explains that it is the antithesis of what Jesus says.

    Do you put Enyart above the Bible?
    Remember, Satan quoted the bible when tempting Jesus.
    You can twist it for any purpose.
    Including justifying hatred for other people.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
    12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

    Not exactly tough love, huh?
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

    We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.
    Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

    Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.
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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?
    One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.

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    And I would be happy to go over it piece by piece and point out the flaws of logic.

    He's good, Enyart.
    "Even the devil quotes scriptures for his purpose."
    For Enyart, it is a call to mistreat anyone who he deems unworthy.

    It's the antithesis of christianity. It's much more along the lines of Pharisee thinking.

    I still can't figure out how loving someone as much as you love another translates into yelling at them, wishing them to be executed, saying they make you sick, and turning on your heels.

    I have yet to understand how, despite the numerous posts from different posters, saying that if you are forgiven, how treating others in condemnation for being sinners is in contradiction with the words of Christ.

    We all keep asking you questions, and you have no answers.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by beanieboy

    10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
    12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners...
    ...to repentence. See Luke 5:32

    (or see Mark 2:17 or Matthew 9:13 in a translation based on the majority text.)

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    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?

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    Turbo: I do.
    But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
    So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

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    Originally posted by Turbo

    beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?
    Biblical Scholars, who studied who spoke, to whom, look at translation, and look at it responsibly are unable to say for sure.
    Half say it definitely condemns it.
    The other half say that it was referring to idol practices of pagan temples.
    So, if those studying that much and believing in it differ, then, no, I don't.

    And those who say that it is black and white don't study it that intensely.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Originally posted by Nietzschean

    Turbo: I do.
    But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
    So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.
    The thing that always sticks with me it the strange insinuation that if only I become heterosexual, I will make it into heaven.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Old Timer Chileice's Avatar
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    Originally posted by granite1010

    That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.
    You are right about my point. But what worries me more is that Clete and the writer of the article don't get the point of the Bible. Yes, Clete, I read the whole painful article. It is written by someone with some kind of complex.

    You and he are not READing scripture, you are reading INTO it. So many of the verses quoted are so out of context. So many times the writer asserts sarcasm when one would have to be present to determine such an attitude. A sarcastic jaded hateful person might be able to read sarcasm into some passages, but it is a refection of their own pain rather than a reflection of God's grace.

    If anyone should understand grace, it should be one forgiven. Jesus' harshest comments (as you point out) were for the Pharisees... self-righteous religious bigots. He WAS gracious and kind to the hurting and to the sinful. He even healed people for whom we have no record of repentance. He even healed ungrateful people like 9 out of the 10 lepers. I have no doubt he would heal AIDS patients whether they were likely to be thankful or repentant or not.

    You are missing the whole point of the incarnation. God became man, yet without sin. He was the only one not to sin. He only came out of MERCY. A word sadly lacking in your vocabulary. MERCY and GRACE. If you are based on the law, you are a judaizer, not a Christian. If you think we are here to harrang people into the kingdom... I don't think we are headed for the same kingdom. To say the Bible does not teach us to love the sinner but hate the sin is an outright lie. Go read Jude 22 and 23. You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3.

    I do not hate you or despise you, but I do pity you. I feel you have missed out on the joy of the eternal life Christ has promised to those who believe. Pray for those who persecute you for those who are lost and trust that Christ will bring them to his throne of grace. Please re-examine the New Testament with a heart that is not full of judgement and bitterness. Look through the Spirit´s eyes and not through Bob's mouth.
    Blessings.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Originally posted by granite1010

    Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

    Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.
    What are you talking about?

    When have gotten hysterical. You bring up accusations and I defend against them, you say something that is wrong, I say so. It seems that it is you who cannot stand the heat. You deal with it! I can do this all day long! Just keep in mind that you will give an account for every idol word you speak. I recommend that you make sure you know what you are talking about before proceeding.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nietzschean

    One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.
    You missunderstood what I meant when I said that. I know he disagrees with Bob's position. What I don't understand is how he get Bob's position so backward! He is arguing against things that neither I nor Bob have said or advocate. It is literally as if he hasn't read the article.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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