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Thread: Nicer than God!

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    I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.
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    Originally posted by granite1010

    I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.
    Which he would tell you himself!

    You act as if he's being disengenuous or something.
    He would also tell you that if this country did execute adulterers as they should then the circumstances that led to his families distruction would never have happened in the first place
    WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

    It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
    He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

    Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

    After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
    He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

    Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

    But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

    So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

    If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

    Can anyone back me up on this?
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    Did you even read the article?

    Who said anything about taking vengeance?
    Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

    Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
    Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I'm not saying that you can't judge.

    But if you judge on appearances, well, that is the measure that you will be judged on.

    If you judge quickly, so will you be judged.

    But if you carefully weigh things, you will be judged with careful weight of all things.

    That's all I'm saying.

    I probably can't judge you because I don't know you.
    But I can judge what you have said.

    And I did.
    You offered only condemnation, "You make me sick! You don't deserve God!" but offer nothing more.
    No mercy.
    No hope.
    Not even suggestion for change.
    Simply a dead end.

    I see a very angry, wrathful person who wishes others dead according to Lev. Law.

    I see someone who is more a diciple of Enyart than Christ.
    Enyart is very good at twisting the bible to make it into anything he wants, and then he gets converts, like you.

    That is why I think he is so evil. He cuts people off from God.

    Matthew 23

    13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[1]
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Originally posted by beanieboy

    Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

    It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
    He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

    Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

    After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
    He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

    Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

    But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

    So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

    If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

    Can anyone back me up on this?
    First of all it was Turbo that mentioned the 8 year old not me. It's okay though, I agree with Turbo!

    Secondly, it simply doesn't matter. No one is saying that being harsh is appropriate in every situation. It's perfectly legitimate to be nice if one feels that it will get you somewhere by doing so. What is being said is that one should not be nicer than God and that being harsh is a very effective means of getting people to open their eyes as well as an effective way of deterring sin in others and that this tactic was used frequently by several if not all of the prophets and by God Himself.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Agreed.

    Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
    He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
    He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
    He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

    But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
    Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?

    You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

    The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

    21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
    22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
    23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
    26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
    28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
    29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
    30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
    32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
    35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


    This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    Originally posted by beanieboy

    Agreed.

    Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
    He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
    He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
    He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

    But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.
    See post #1

    Read the article!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Originally posted by Chileice

    You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

    The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

    21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
    22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
    23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
    26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
    28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
    29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
    30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
    32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
    35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


    This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.
    We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

    See post #1

    READ THE ARTICLE!!!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

    See post #1

    READ THE ARTICLE!!!
    That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.
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    Originally posted by granite1010

    That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.
    No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

    We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

    We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.
    I think it's interesting how seldom people with such attitudes are placed in positions where they have to put their actions where their mouths go.

    If you discovered two of your employees engaging in homosexual activity in the supply closet, would you flog them or kill them because the Bible says so?

    If you discovered two of your married employees engaging in heterosexual liaison (i.e. adultery) in the rest room, would you kill them because the Bible says so?


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    I have read the article.
    Many times.
    It's been on the site for years.

    The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

    All of these are followers of Jesus, or teachers of the law.
    Not sinners.

    Can you describe what not showing mercy means to you?
    Please describe it in detail.
    Give examples how how one should treat the unrepentant.

    One of your suggestions is to execute them, so that God can then send them to hell.
    That's the harsh judgement I was talking about.
    It seems that more than that, you would want the person to enter heaven by praying for a change of heart, not seal their fate.

    So, I'm confused.
    Can you explain how one should act?
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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    But I tell you: Love your enemies[ 5:44 Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,

    This is following with the practices of Buddha.
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

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