toldailytopic: Is it wrong for the government to take money from one person and give

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Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 4th, 2010 09:09 AM


toldailytopic: Is it wrong for the government to take money from one person and give it to another person in the form of welfare, or food stamps, etc.






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chrysostom

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it is not wrong
but
we should not take away the incentive to work

how we are taxed is the important thing
 
WizardofOz

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No, it is not wrong for governments to tax individuals in order to provide basic necessities for the poor.

Matthew 22:16-21
They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."



I counter: Is it wrong for governments to allow its citizens to starve to death or otherwise go without basic necessities such as shelter?

Every government "takes" (taxes) it's what the government then does with those resources that displays their benevolence or malevolence. If we've got money for war, we've got money to feed the poor.
 
Aimiel

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I've been working since I was 14, and they've been taking from me ever since. They have also been giving to my cousin, whom I don't believe has ever worked a day in his life. I don't think that those who 'work' the system should be allowed to get away with it. He is NOT disabled, he just knows how to get paid for not working. He now has ten children and 19 grandchildren. I believe one of his sons is married. The number of people who live at his home (paid for by your and my taxes) is unknown. Suffice it to say: many.
 
Nick M

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Of course it is. Jesus telling you to be loving has nothing to do with the government taking what they are not mandated by Jesus (God) to do.
 
WizardofOz

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Nick M said:
Of course it is. Jesus telling you to be loving has nothing to do with the government taking what they are not mandated by Jesus (God) to do.
Click to expand...

How do you reconcile this attitude with Matthew 22:16-21? I'd be interested to hear your take since those are the faces of dead president's on the coin and paper currency, not God's. :think:
 
Nathon Detroit

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WizardofOz said:
How do you reconcile this attitude with Matthew 22:16-21? I'd be interested to hear your take since those are the faces of dead president's on the coin and paper currency, not God's. :think:
Click to expand...
Paying taxes is lawful. What the government does with that tax revenue might possibly be unlawful.
 
assuranceagent

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To me, this is a tough one.

I believe that taxation is lawful and appropriate, and I think that Oz's referenced scripture above generally supports that idea. So on the "taking" part of the equation, I think I'd have to vote: not wrong.

Then the question arises as to what those taxes are being used to support. And when we get to that, I tend to believe that taxation should be used to benefit the populace at large. In other words, civil services such as roads, transportation, legislative support, law enforcement, etc.

Where I start to draw the line is when the government begins to target a specific demographic of people for greater taxation, in order to target a different specific demographic of people for greater benefit. Otherwise affectionately called "redistribution of wealth." Or, "welfare."

I believe that's the Church's job. And the individual believer's job. And I think that the necessity of government intervention in that regard is both an indictment of the faithful, and indicative of abuse among those 'entitled.'

In other words, the Church - by definition, the faithful - should give more, as we are they who are called to care for the widows and orphans. It is wrong that we don't give as we have been prospered.

Meanwhile, the "needy" ought to require less, since it is they who have been called to make a living by the sweat of their respective brows. It is wrong that they don't.

But there is still the issue of the truly needy. The helpless, the widows, the orphans, etc. They need care. And in a utopian society, the government would have little to nothing to do with that and the Church would bear the load.

The problem, however, is that this is no Utopia.

...like I said. Tough one. :idunno:
 
Nathon Detroit

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Before the government started taking money from people to give to others in the form of welfare, churches and families took on that role voluntarily. It's good to voluntarily help those in need and get them back on their feet. Yet being forced to give money to my neighbor via the government is another story entirely.

As soon as government steps in... most everyone else steps out. :(

Furthermore.... when welfare is so easily available a certain percentage of folks choose it as a career option instead of earning their own money and becoming a asset to society.

THEREFORE...
It is wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to another neighbor in the form of welfare or food stamps.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ...If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
 
Aimiel

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Knight said:
It is wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to another neighbor in the form of welfare or food stamps.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ...If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
Click to expand...
AMEN!!!

Knight for President! :thumb:
 
WizardofOz

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Knight said:
Before the government started taking money from people to give to others in the form of welfare, churches and families took on that role voluntarily. It's good to voluntarily help those in need and get them back on their feet. Yet being forced to give money to my neighbor via the government is another story entirely.

As soon as government steps in... most everyone else steps out. :(

Furthermore.... when welfare is so easily available a certain percentage of folks choose it as a career option instead of earning their own money and becoming a asset to society.
Click to expand...

I agree that charity is a much better option. However, in the most difficult economic conditions, charity is scaled back just when the poor need help more than ever. Giving money in times of prosperity isn't the issue. It's when recession/depressions hit when government intervention is needed.

Knight said:
THEREFORE...
It is wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to another neighbor in the form of welfare or food stamps.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ...If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
Click to expand...

Too simplistic. Plenty of people on welfare or receiving food stamps do work. Also, this verse says if anyone will not work. What about those that cannot work?

Any obligation? Let them eat cake?
 
elohiym

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Knight said:
THEREFORE...
It is wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to another neighbor in the form of welfare or food stamps.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ...If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
Click to expand...

Let me throw you a twist...

The disabled veteran.

Is it wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to a disabled veteran in the form of welfare or food stamps?
 
Aimiel

Aimiel

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Definitely NOT. Especially our veterans. The disabled require help, but most of them don't take any.
 
kmoney

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I would not say it's wrong. However there must be a balance between providing help to those in need and not incentivizing (is that a word? :freak:) laziness. It is a tough issue though. I think part of it is dependent on our government, and how we view it in relation to us. For instance, a dictator taxing to do certain things may be viewed differently than a democratically elected government taxing to do certain things.
 
OMEGA

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YOU REJECTED GOD and now you have MAN's RULE.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your *****, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations;
 
drbrumley

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OMEGA said:
YOU REJECTED GOD and now you have MAN's RULE.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your *****, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations;
Click to expand...

Agreed. Couple that with Jesus' saying, "Render to Ceaser what is Ceaser's" quote and it demolishes governments as we know it.
 
Nick M

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elohiym said:
Let me throw you a twist...

The disabled veteran.

Is it wrong for the government to take money from one neighbor and give it to a disabled veteran in the form of welfare or food stamps?
Click to expand...

There is a difference between those that can not work and those that will not work.
 
HerodionRomulus

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I certainly think it is wrong to take my money and finance unnecessary wars which make us less safe such as the war to Liberate Iraqi oil and the War to protect Unocal's pipeline across Afghanistan.
Blessed are the peacemakers
 
HerodionRomulus

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But let's get past the simplistic slogans.

Fact
Over 50% of all food stamp recipients are children.
The second largest group are elderly, followed by elderly and disabled, the disabled, single parents--usually women.
Single able-bodied adults without dependents are a small number.

Are there abuses? Of course, there always are always will be. Just like there are abuses like Enron, Arthur Anderson, WorldCom.

Not to mention the huge welfare payments that large corporations like Archer Daniels Midland, or hundreds of thousands in subsidies to former Senator Frist because he owns enough property to qualify for farm subsidies.
 
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