toldailytopic: Is it always wrong to hate?

MrRadish · Jul 30, 2010

MaryContrary said:
Hm. You're being rather vague. "Generally there are better alternatives" and "tends to be more beneficial". Well, sure. Presented with all possible scenarios we'll find hate isn't appropriate for the vast majority of them. No problem agreeing on that point.

I tend to use vague terms a lot, you'll notice. Well, quite a lot, sometimes.

lain:

But yes, obviously in the majority of circumstances hatred wouldn't even enter into the equation. Even in ones where it's tempting, though, I find it difficult to think of one where there isn't a better alternative.

True. Emotion motivates us to action. But we should engage with reason to determine what action.

Again, just tossing it out there that hate isn't somehow a "bad" emotion. They're all good or bad depending on how you use them. Or allow them to use you.

That is a very good point. Very few things are inherently good or bad. That said, from what I've seen, hatred often tends to lead to destructive, rather than constructive actions. It tends to be fairly short-sighted in that it often ends at eliminating its object, rather than replacing or reforming it. It has its place, but like I said, I find it usually has a more useful alternative.

We tend to reject hate, ironically, irrationally. In fact, I'd suggest we hate hate. Which I don't think is a reasoned application of hate.

Like I say, an excellent point. :chuckle: Hatred has its place. I just think it tends to be made a bit redundant by other attitudes.

Traditio · Jul 30, 2010

WandererInFog said:
<snip>

All of the aforementioned are metaphorical seses of the word. There are two senses in which we can't understand the word "hate." God can't hate in a pathological sense, precisely because God doesn't have emotions, at least, no in the sense that we do. God's essence is perpetual self-love. Yet, we can't even understand "love" in a pathological sense. God's love is volitional. It's the creative affirmation of his own essence. It's the same affirmation whereby the Son is eternally begotten and the Holy Ghost is eternally spirated.

Given the above, it's also clear why we can't understand "hate" in the destructive sense. God can't destroy, since the very life of God is creativity. It's an eternal: "I will." No, if there's any sense in which "God hates," I think that St. Thomas Aquinas speaks rightly in saying that these uses of the terms are anthropological metaphors. They only apply analogically.

This is only fitting, given that in the OT, there is a kind of "veil" (2 Corinthians 3:14) hides any kind of theological truth in a kind of obscurity. Granted, the OT is entirely inerrant. That said, it's still not always clear what that truth is:

It's revealing that you didn't give any quotes from the New Testament. You couldn't have if you wanted to. God is only described as "hating" once, and it's in the Apocalypse of St. John. God says that He hates the works of the Nicolaites. The word "hate" only occurs 15 times (given a cursory search in the Douay Rheims). Do you know how many times the word "love" comes up?

It comes up 100 times. That's just "love." That doesn't include "charity," which also can be translated "love."

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

Ultimately you cannot really love God if you do not hate His enemies,

He says to love them. How can you claim to love God if you won't even follow what He tells you?

just as you cannot really be said to love another person if you do not hate those who would seek to do them harm.

That is a completely depraved view of love.

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

Hate is pretty much its own punishment. If you hate, you sear a piece of your soul. The more you hate, the more you lose.

That's why Jesus says to love your enemies. Not for them, but for yourself, and for God.

Cracked · Jul 30, 2010

MaryContrary said:
Um...God does that.

Deuteronomy 18:12, Deuteronomy 22:5, Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Proverbs 3:32, Proverbs 6:17, Proverbs 6:19, Proverbs 16:5, Proverbs 17:15, etcetera and so on.

Learning to love like God is hard enough...
If you master that, then feel free to go on to learn to hate like He does.

WandererInFog · Jul 30, 2010

The Barbarian said:
He says to love them. How can you claim to love God if you won't even follow what He tells you?

Please point to where God says to love his enemies. Please point to where God says to love those who are seeking to harm others.

That is a completely depraved view of love.

No, it's one with actual meaning. You cannot be said to love something you aren't willing to actually fight for and defend.

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

Barbarian observes:
He says to love them. How can you claim to love God if you won't even follow what He tells you?

Please point to where God says to love his enemies. Please point to where God says to love those who are seeking to harm others.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you

just as you cannot really be said to love another person if you do not hate those who would seek to do them harm.

Barbarian observes:
That is a completely depraved view of love.

No, it's one with actual meaning.

By your argument, God doesn't love those who follow and obey Him.
He tells us to love those who would harm us.

You cannot be said to love something you aren't willing to actually fight for and defend.

Show me where God says that. You're just making things up to suit yourself, and you've completely reversed what God is telling you to do.

Lighthouse · Jul 30, 2010

Nick M said:
So you love child molestors. You are so far gone from being a civilized human, maybe God will think you are just stupid chimp at judgement and let you in.

You forgot a very important point in his post. He claimed that God told us not to hate our enemies, then, in defense of this, quoted a verse where Jesus commanded that we love our enemies. That is a non sequitur if ever I saw one. There is no Scripture anywhere in the entire Bible where God commands anyone not to hate their enemies.:nono:

Just because He commanded we love our enemies does not mean He demands we do not hate them.

Traditio said:
The human person is a radical subjectivity. He cannot be reduced to an object. Whenever you reduce someone to his actions, you commit a violence, not only against that person, but humanity in general. As it is, the human person is not an object. He is a subject. He transcends his actions. Yes, you must love even those people, even though their behavior is monstrous.

Was there any point at which Knight said we should not love these people?

Traditio · Jul 30, 2010

Lighthouse said:
Was there any point at which Knight said we should not love these people?

If you hate someone, you don't love them...at least, unless there's a radically different sense of the word "hate" in use with which I'm unfamiliar.

Lighthouse · Jul 30, 2010

Traditio said:
If you hate someone, you don't love them...at least, unless there's a radically different sense of the word "hate" in use with which I'm unfamiliar.

Apparently.

It is written [Psalm 5:5] that God hates all workers of iniquity. In v6 following it is written that He abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful men. And all over Proverbs are lists of things God hates, abhors and detests. As we all know many sins are referred to as abominations by God, as well as those who commit those sins.

But none of us deny that God loves those very same people. In fact, Romans 5:8 shows us that He demonstrated His love toward us through the death of His Son while we were still sinners, i.e. while He hated us.

Do you see that you are mistaken on what it means to hate?

Traditio · Jul 30, 2010

Lighthouse said:
But none of us deny that God loves those very same people. In fact, Romans 5:8 shows us that He demonstrated His love toward us through the death of His Son while we were still sinners, i.e. while He hated us.

Do you see that you are mistaken on what it means to hate?

No, I see that the word "hate" is being used metaphorically. God "hated" Sodom to the degree that their sins resulted in their destruction. :squint:

WandererInFog · Jul 30, 2010

The Barbarian said:
By your argument, God doesn't love those who follow and obey Him.

Certainly he does. God will save every one of His Elect giving them eternal life, while the reprobate will be given eternal torment. What more could God possibly do to protect and defend the objects of His love? Anything else is meaningless in comparison to that.

He tells us to love those who would harm us.

And we should, because the alternative is to display the inordinate love of self known as Pride. We should never hate anyone merely because they are in some way a threat to ourselves. God, however, being intrinsically deserving on infinite love cannot be prideful and therefore the same doesn't apply to Him.

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

Lighthouse tries a different spin:

Just because He commanded we love our enemies does not mean He demands we do not hate them.

Traditio writes:
If you hate someone, you don't love them...at least, unless there's a radically different sense of the word "hate" in use with which I'm unfamiliar.

There is:

In NineteenEightyFour GeorgeOrwell invented a language for the use of Party members in his imagined totalitarian state: Newspeak. The central principle of Newspeak is that it makes it impossible to contemplate rebellion against the state. In Newspeak peace is war , love is hate, freedom is slavery.

Lighthouse's ideal government. Where one loves others by hating them.

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

Barbarian on the argument that one can't love anyone unless they hate whoever would hurt them:
By your argument, God doesn't love those who follow and obey Him. He tells us to love those who would hurt us:

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you

Certainly he does.

He does, even though he tells us to love those who hurt us. If you don't get this, you aren't with Him.

What more could God possibly do to protect and defend the objects of His love? Anything else is meaningless in comparison to that.

You're just making it up with no scriptural support for it at all.

Barbarian observes:
He tells us to love those who would harm us.

And we should, because the alternative is to display the inordinate love of self known as Pride. We should never hate anyone merely because they are in some way a threat to ourselves. God, however, being intrinsically deserving on infinite love cannot be prideful and therefore the same doesn't apply to Him.

So it's always bad for us to hate, but not for Him. Pretty much what Jesus is telling you.

Lighthouse · Jul 30, 2010

Traditio said:
No, I see that the word "hate" is being used metaphorically. God "hated" Sodom to the degree that their sins resulted in their destruction. :squint:

Metaphorically? Put on your dunce cap and go sit in the corner.

WandererInFog · Jul 30, 2010

The Barbarian said:
He does, even though he tells us to love those who hurt us.

Absolutely. We can't hate purely on the basis of someone wronging or offending us without being prideful. Pride, being sinful, is intrinsically harmful to us and therefore he admonishes us against it.

So it's always bad for us to hate, but not for Him. Pretty much what Jesus is telling you.

No, what he is saying is that it's wrong for us to hate out of sense of being personally offended or wronged, which is prideful. He goes no further than that.

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

No, what he is saying is that it's wrong for us to hate out of sense of being personally offended or wronged, which is prideful. He goes no further than that.

He doesn't say that at all. That's your addition. And it's not a good idea.

WandererInFog · Jul 30, 2010

The Barbarian said:
He doesn't say that at all. That's your addition. And it's not a good idea.

Your the one adding to what is said. The passage specifically states repeatedly, in different ways, we are not to hate on the basis of someone doing injury to us. Nowhere does it say that we are not to on the basis of injury done to others.

Take the same idea and apply it to the verses which directly precede that one. For example:

But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Does this mean we are to simply stand by and watch as others are physically assaulted?

student_ad_x · Jul 30, 2010

Questions:

Can a "feeling" (temptiation) lead to an action of sin?

What was the question again?

lain:

The Barbarian · Jul 30, 2010

No, what he is saying is that it's wrong for us to hate out of sense of being personally offended or wronged, which is prideful. He goes no further than that.

Barbarian observes:
He doesn't say that at all. That's your addition. And it's not a good idea.

Your the one adding to what is said. The passage specifically states repeatedly, in different ways, we are not to hate on the basis of someone doing injury to us. Nowhere does it say that we are not to on the basis of injury done to others.

If so, we come back to your argument that one can't love someone without hating someone who would hurt them. But God says to love people how harm us. And nowhere does he say that pride is the issue. By that argument, God doesn't love Christians. His word is not meant to be parsed like a lawyer reading estate law.

Take the same idea and apply it to the verses which directly precede that one. For example:

But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Does this mean we are to simply stand by and watch as others are physically assaulted?

So it boils down to conflating resistance against evil to hatred?

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