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Thread: Are you a Libertarian?

  1. #31
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    You can't get much more moderate than that.

    Were you surprised not to be on the left side of the line though?
    A little surprised by that. I was more surprised to have that much of a fascist streak, even though I was still in the "not" range.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Okay, on that one I come out: 5.6% Right, 11.1% Liberal

    Ahhhh....this explains why you will not respond to the question about Joe Montana losing a Super Bowl!
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    Ahhhh....this explains why you will not respond to the question about Joe Montana losing a Super Bowl!
    Joe Montana was so good he can't even lose a hypothetical.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







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  7. #34
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    What's the Libertarian position on pro-life or pro-choice?

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What's the Libertarian position on pro-life or pro-choice?
    Depends on who you talk to about it.

    I am of the kind that thinks it is wrong to take a life. It goes against the non aggression principle.
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What's the Libertarian position on pro-life or pro-choice?
    Depends on who you talk with. I asked Dr. Walter Block this hypothetical, "if you were on your plane going over international waters and discovered a man, unconscious and wearing nothing but a pair of boxers as a stow-away, should you be allowed to throw him into the Pacific?" His answer was yes. It was given as an analogy to abortion as the woman owns her body and can have any other body removed. He understands the baby is human from fertilization.

    You find a lot of libertarians who don't agree with him, for obvious reasons.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

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  15. #38
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What's the Libertarian position on pro-life or pro-choice?
    If there is a human, then that human possesses all human rights in that moment. Does a pregnant woman lose her right to her own body, when she becomes pregnant? If the embryo is a human, then yes, and if not, then no. So the entire question is about whether or not the embryo is a human or not, and if so, then when exactly does the embryo become a human? The earliest possible time is the seed of a man and the egg of a woman, because whether life begins at, after, or before conception is an open question. So between the generation of seed, and birth, somewhere along that timeline is where opinion prevails in determining when the material (seed, fertilized egg, embryo, etc.) is a human, and when therefore crimes become possible (there is no crime against material that is not yet human, iow---supra where life beginning at, after, or before conception remains an open question).
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

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  17. #39
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The earliest possible time is the seed of a man and the egg of a woman, because whether life begins at, after, or before conception is an open question.
    Except that it's NOT an open question.

    Life does, in fact, begin at conception, and with a flash of light, too.

    https://americanrtl.org/beginning-of-biological-life

    The only people who question this fact are those who are killing or want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.

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  19. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Except that it's NOT an open question.

    Life does, in fact, begin at conception, and with a flash of light, too.

    https://americanrtl.org/beginning-of-biological-life
    It is manifestly an open question. I included even pre-conception theories about when life begins only to broaden the context, because even while it is unpopular today, historically there were some people who believed that life began even before conception.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The only people who question this fact are those who are killing or want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.
    I believe that abortion is killing, I'm just Catholic in that regard. But what you say here begs the question, just as I would be begging the question to presume that Catholicism is the right theology.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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  21. #41
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    It is manifestly an open question.
    It's not. Life begins at conception.

    You missed it:

    https://americanrtl.org/beginning-of-biological-life

    THE BEGINNING OF BIOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT

    1. SEXUAL HUMAN REPRODUCTION:


    The following scientific references are provided by medical ethicist Dr. Prof. Dianne N. Irving of Georgetown University who herself writes herein, "Scientifically, the term 'embryo' as it refers to the sexually reproduced single-cell human embryo should apply from the biological beginning of that human organism, i.e., at the beginning of the process of fertilization or first contact of the sperm with the oocyte (as documented by Carnegie Stage 1)."

    So, beginning this list of references with the widely influential Carnegie Stages of Early Human Embryonic Development:

    Carnegie Stage 1 Definition: Embryonic life commences with fertilization, and hence the beginning of that process may be taken as the point de depart of stage 1. Despite the small size (ca. 0.1 mm) and weight (ca. 0.004 mg) of the organism at fertilization, the embryo is "schon ein individual-spezifischer Mensch" (Blechschmidt, 1972). ... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with an oocyte or its investments and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote (Brackett et al., 1972). Fertilization sensu stricto involves the union of developmentally competent gametes realized in an appropriate environment to result in the formation of a viable embryo (Tesarik, 1986) ... . Fertilization requires probably slightly longer than 24 hours in primates (Brackett et al., 1972). In the case of human oocytes fertilized in vitro, pronuclei were formed within 11 hours of insemination (Edwards, 1972). ... Fertilization, which takes place normally in the ampulla of the uterine tube, includes (a) contact of spermatozoa with the zona pellucida of an oocyte, penetration of one or more spermatozoa through the zona pellucida and the ooplasm, swelling of the spermatozoal head and extrusion of the second polar body, (b) the formation of the male and female pronuclei, and (c) the beginning of the first mitotic division, or cleavage, of the zygote. ... The three phases (a, b, and c) referred to above will be included here under stage 1, the characteristic feature of which is unicellularity. ... [see at cargnegiescience.edu from the Carnegie Stages of Early Human Embryonic Development, Stage 1.] (emphases added)

    Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (or spermatozoon) from a male. (p. 2); ibid.: ... but the embryo begins to develop as soon as the oocyte is fertilized. (p. 2); ibid.: [Single-cell human embryo]: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm ... is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). (p. 2); ibid.: Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell [embryo] . This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual. (p. 18) ... The usual site of fertilization is the ampulla of the uterine tube [fallopian tube], its longest and widest part. If the oocyte is not fertilized here, it slowly passes along the tube to the uterus, where it degenerates and is reabsorbed. Although fertilization may occur in other parts of the tube, it does not occur in the uterus. ... The embryo's chromosomes sex is determined at fertilization by the kind of sperm (X or Y) that fertilizes the ovum; hence it is the father rather than the mother whose gamete determines the sex of the embryo. [Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed. only) (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), p. 37] (emphases added)

    Human pregnancy begins with the fusion of an egg and a sperm. (p. 3); ... finally, the fertilized egg, now properly called an embryo, must make its way into the uterus (p. 3); ... The sex of the future embryo is determined by the chromosomal complement of the spermatozoon ... Through the mingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes, the [embryo] is a genetically unique product of chromosomal reassortment ... [Bruce M. Carlson, Human Embryology and Developmental Biology (St. Louis, MO: Mosby, 1994), p. 31; ibid, Carlson 1999, pp., 2, 23, 27, 32] (emphasis added)

    In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct [not the uterus]... resulting in the formation of an [embryo] containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point. (p. 1); ... [William J. Larsen, Human Embryology (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997), p. 17] (emphases added)

    Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. (p. 5); ibid.: Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments ... (p. 19); ibid.: "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book. [Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1994), p. 55] (emphases added)



    I included even pre-conception theories about when life begins
    Which are disproven by the above.

    only to broaden the context, because even while it is unpopular today, historically there were some people who believed that life began even before conception.
    Which makes no difference whatsoever to the FACT that life begins at conception, as shown above.

    I believe that abortion is killing,
    Do you oppose all abortion? If not, then you are part of the second group that I mentioned, those who want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.

    If you do, then why do you question the fact that life begins at conception?

    I'm just Catholic in that regard. But what you say here begs the question, just as I would be begging the question to presume that Catholicism is the right theology.
    See above.

    https://youtu.be/AE0Ih_RRql4

    [YT]AE0Ih_RRql4[/YT]

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  23. #42
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Do you oppose all abortion? If not, then you are part of the second group that I mentioned, those who want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.
    Mothers have a right to self defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    If you do, then why do you question the fact that life begins at conception?
    I never questioned it. I stated the fact that the question is manifestly open. Just because Catholicism and I believe with good reason that at conception there is a human, does not mean that the question is objectively settled.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Mothers have a right to self defense.
    What, you think the baby is attacking the mother?



    The right to self-defence does not overrule the right to life of the baby in her womb.

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    Conception is the point at which a unique, living, human organism is created

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  29. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The right to self-defence does not overrule the right to life of the baby in her womb.
    Let's say a lifeguard has chosen to respond to a cry for help far out in the dangerous surf. She swims out and begins to bring the swimmer back across this great distance. At some point the lifeguard realizes the surf is too strong for her to continue. She can either release the swimmer, who will drown, or she can continue and they will both drown.

    Is she a murderer for letting go?
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







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